"Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

From Protestants to Pastafarians, from Mormons to Muslims, spirituality is as old as man, and so is discussing religion.

Moderator: Fortigurn

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby TainanCowboy » Tue Apr 26, 2016 17:52

One thing these assholes are not, though, is Muslims.


Abu Sayyaf has a long established relation ship with radical Islam in the PI. Mindinao, their home base area, has a long history of Islamic terrorism.

Moros, NPA, MILF (not the good kind of MILFs), all have been firmly established on the various islands.

Further info here: http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... s-hostage/
The facts expressed here belong to everybody. The opinions are mine.
I don’t post political comments or articles to convince those who disagree with me,
I post them so that those who might agree with such positions will know they are not alone.
Some things are opinions and can be argued - some things are facts and cannot.
Proverbs, Chapter 16 verse 9 <--- When in doubt, remember this.
TainanCowboy
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3803
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 14:44
Location: Tainan - The Original Taiwan
Has given kudos: 793 times
Has gotten kudos: 489 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Hannibal » Tue Apr 26, 2016 19:16

One thing these assholes are not, though, is Muslims. They probably couldn't even spell the word; I doubt more than 1 in 10 has read the Quran, or can read.


Why can't they be Muslims? Just because one demonstrates individual behaviors that appear antithetical to one's professed belief system to outsiders doesn't mean they don't in their own way adhere to that system, be it Islam, Christianity, liberalism or conservatism.

Case in point: a fat brain surgeon who smokes cigarettes when "you" think he should know better. :idunno:

They're not not Muslims because you or any TV talking head says so.
Na na na na hey hey
Hannibal
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48
Has given kudos: 58 times
Has gotten kudos: 454 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Big Vern » Tue Apr 26, 2016 19:48

To be fair to Toad, and I think he is wrong in this instance, my take is that he was suggesting that the Muslim line is irrelevant with these gangsters. It's just an excuse for criminality.

I think they are Muslims, just not good ones.

These users gave kudos to the author Big Vern for the post:
TainanCowboy (Tue Apr 26, 2016 20:13)
Big Vern
Taiwanease Deity
 
Posts: 5305
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:37
Has given kudos: 564 times
Has gotten kudos: 916 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Hannibal » Tue Apr 26, 2016 20:20

Big Vern wrote:To be fair to Toad, and I think he is wrong in this instance, my take is that he was suggesting that the Muslim line is irrelevant with these gangsters. It's just an excuse for criminality.

I think they are Muslims, just not good ones.


Right, as I do. I know several Burmese refugees here in Albany, illiterate and quite Muslim, right down to the marrying off your 15 year old daughter Muslim. Total knobs, yet still very Muslim. It is interesting how some see behaviors they disagree with as making people more or less whatever they say they are, Muslim extremist suicide bombers aren't Muslim.Sure they are. Liberal Muslims living in New York aren't really Muslim because they listen to hiphop and smoke weed...sure they are. My point, well, one of them, is that "we" as outsiders shouldn't be determining what they are and are not. It's dismissive and intellectually lazy. :twocents:
Na na na na hey hey
Hannibal
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48
Has given kudos: 58 times
Has gotten kudos: 454 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Big Vern » Tue Apr 26, 2016 20:25

Hannibal wrote:
Big Vern wrote:To be fair to Toad, and I think he is wrong in this instance, my take is that he was suggesting that the Muslim line is irrelevant with these gangsters. It's just an excuse for criminality.

I think they are Muslims, just not good ones.


Right, as I do. I know several Burmese refugees here in Albany, illiterate and quite Muslim, right down to the marrying off your 15 year old daughter Muslim. Total knobs, yet still very Muslim. It is interesting how some see behaviors they disagree with as making people more or less whatever they say they are, Muslim extremist suicide bombers aren't Muslim.Sure they are. Liberal Muslims living in New York aren't really Muslim because they listen to hiphop and smoke weed...sure they are. My point, well, one of them, is that "we" as outsiders shouldn't be determining what they are and are not. It's intellectually lazy. :twocents:


Of course, but this applies for everyone. Pointing the finger at hypocrisy leaves one with few digits.
Big Vern
Taiwanease Deity
 
Posts: 5305
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:37
Has given kudos: 564 times
Has gotten kudos: 916 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Mick » Tue Apr 26, 2016 21:51

Muslim or Islam is too broad a brush stroke, Wahhabi/Salafi interpretations are providing an excuse to carry out attacks on, well just about everybody and what motivates the people may be a range of issues, the Paris attackers prior to getting involved with ISIS were from ghettos and involved in minor crimes, this is not a religious type, but see an opportunity within a twisted doctrine who under the guise of Islam can rape loot and pillage.

Even if the members of ISIS are illiterate, their leader has a PHD in Islamic studies from Baghdad University, it's not like they are flying blind like pirates, Boko Haram, Abu Sayyaf, Al Quida, ISIS and Saudi Arabia, all follow this Wahhabi interpretation. Which is being promoted by the Sauds, and has had not enough light brought on it, and in my opinion the west has been to scared to call out this interpretation of Islam, which is spreading, unfortunately. Bangladesh has had some gruesome killings in the last few days alone, again these salafi types butchering gays or atheists or really anyone who would write anything negative about them.

it's not an ideology or interpretation shared by the vast majority, the Muslim community has failed to address this issue with enough urgency IMO and which is an even bigger threat to themselves than anyone else. The west has failed also, following 911 it should have been clear Wahhabi interpretation and Saudi Arabia were a problem, 15 years and nothing done to push back against this repugnant interpretation of Islam.
Mick
Taiwanease Gentry
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 23:03
Has given kudos: 122 times
Has gotten kudos: 187 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Kal El » Tue Apr 26, 2016 22:00

Mick wrote:Muslim or Islam is too broad a brush stroke, Wahhabi/Salafi interpretations are providing an excuse to carry out attacks on, well just about everybody and what motivates the people may be a range of issues, the Paris attackers prior to getting involved with ISIS were from ghettos and involved in minor crimes, this is not a religious type, but see an opportunity within a twisted doctrine who under the guise of Islam can rape loot and pillage.

Even if the members of ISIS are illiterate, their leader has a PHD in Islamic studies from Baghdad University, it's not like they are flying blind like pirates, Boko Haram, Abu Sayyaf, Al Quida, ISIS and Saudi Arabia, all follow this Wahhabi interpretation. Which is being promoted by the Sauds, and has had not enough light brought on it, and in my opinion the west has been to scared to call out this interpretation of Islam, which is spreading, unfortunately. Bangladesh has had some gruesome killings in the last few days alone, again these salafi types butchering gays or atheists or really anyone who would write anything negative about them.

it's not an ideology or interpretation shared by the vast majority, the Muslim community has failed to address this issue with enough urgency IMO and which is an even bigger threat to themselves than anyone else. The west has failed also, following 911 it should have been clear Wahhabi interpretation and Saudi Arabia were a problem, 15 years and nothing done to push back against this repugnant interpretation of Islam.

Interpretation or just reading it as it is?

10 Verses from the Quran Prove ISIS Truly Follows Islam

What verses of the Koran do ISIS use as justification for war, mass execution, slavery and rape?

Islamic State releases pamphlet justifying sex slavery of infidel women

It is what it is. :idunno:
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.
Sir Winston Churchill

Heathen filth, the lot of you.
Dr Kurt Langstrom

人不可貌相,海水不可斗量
User avatar
Kal El
Taiwanease Deity
 
Posts: 6931
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 23:17
Location: 台南, 台灣
Has given kudos: 1235 times
Has gotten kudos: 1164 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Hannibal » Tue Apr 26, 2016 22:07

Mick wrote:Muslim or Islam is too broad a brush stroke, Wahhabi/Salafi interpretations are providing an excuse to carry out attacks on, well just about everybody and what motivates the people may be a range of issues, the Paris attackers prior to getting involved with ISIS were from ghettos and involved in minor crimes, this is not a religious type, but see an opportunity within a twisted doctrine who under the guise of Islam can rape loot and pillage.

I would suggest that this brand of Islam is marketed toward such rambunctious youth. Recruitment is quite slick these days.


it's not an ideology or interpretation shared by the vast majority, the Muslim community has failed to address this issue with enough urgency IMO and which is an even bigger threat to themselves than anyone else. The west has failed also, following 911 it should have been clear Wahhabi interpretation and Saudi Arabia were a problem, 15 years and nothing done to push back against this repugnant interpretation of Islam.


Because "the West" believes in multiculturalism, which has superseded religion as a driving cultural force. It's hard for the West to recruit people into multiculturalism when the people they want to recruit are the extremists. :doh: I would offer that the error has been to not actively recruit moderate small-d democratic Muslims into Capitalistic Multiculturalism. I see the latter to a small degree in Albany. A whole lot of folks from Yemen open grocery stores, much like the Koreans did in the 1980s. From my real world recent experience, they are far more interested in working their asses off and watching soccer than blowing the asses and heads off infidels.
Na na na na hey hey
Hannibal
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48
Has given kudos: 58 times
Has gotten kudos: 454 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Hannibal » Tue Apr 26, 2016 22:11

Kal El wrote:
It is what it is. :idunno:


A cursory Google search performed to tell one what one wants to hear? :idunno:
Na na na na hey hey
Hannibal
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48
Has given kudos: 58 times
Has gotten kudos: 454 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Toad » Tue Apr 26, 2016 22:41

Big Vern wrote:To be fair to Toad, and I think he is wrong in this instance, my take is that he was suggesting that the Muslim line is irrelevant with these gangsters. It's just an excuse for criminality.


Yeah, sorry, that was my point, poorly expressed. Terrorists who go around blowing up infidels can easily find justification for doing it in Islamic tradition (the Quran, not so much, interestingly enough). Scumbags who kidnap tourists for money ... can't. Mohammed, AFAIK, never said anything about that sort of thing. The closest you could get is the chapter on 'spoils of war'. So, they're just criminals.

Why can't they be Muslims?

Because, by and large, religion in the Philippines is ... weird. In all likelihood, they know as much about Islam as the average Filipino Catholic knows about Catholicism (which boils down to 'subdue the earth and multiply', and 'make sure to turn up at church to ask forgiveness for a week's worth of sinning'). I'll happily admit I don't know that for a fact; but I've been to NPA-controlled areas of Mindanao, and nobody refers to the terrorists as having any particular political or religious affiliation. They just the local thugs, same as any other thugs. School dropouts; idiots; abused children. People pay them money and then get on with their lives. I have no reason to believe Abu Sayyaf Filipinos are any less steeped in Filipino dysfunction than anybody else in that benighted region, which will have far more bearing on their thoughts and actions than any pretense of Muslim piety.

Just because one demonstrates individual behaviors that appear antithetical to one's professed belief system to outsiders doesn't mean they don't in their own way adhere to that system, be it Islam, Christianity, liberalism or conservatism.

Well .. I would say it does mean exactly that. You can't say "I'm a Christian" and worship Shiva, or "I'm a Hindu" and go to the Mosque every evening. Jesus used the phrase 'by their fruit you shall know them' - a concept more commonly expressed as 'if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...'. I seem to remember a couple of missionaries (?) who were kidnapped by Abu Sayyaf and eventually released. They apparently tried to engage with their kidnappers and talk to them about religious topics. They found that they didn't even know the basics of the Islamic faith, and that half of them were (to put it bluntly) a bit retarded. Correct me if I'm wrong - if you remember the story, it might not have been Abu Sayyaf I'm thinking of there.

Anyway ... while the line might be a blurry one, there definitely is a line beyond which one's assertion to be a Muslim, Christian, or whatever amounts to no more than words.
User avatar
Toad
Taiwanease Aristocracy
 
Posts: 2977
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:50
Has given kudos: 1012 times
Has gotten kudos: 711 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Mick » Tue Apr 26, 2016 22:48

toad, wouldn't you think it strange if every time a Christian group lets say Church of England, or Catholics, or Presbyterians, or whatever, and they and they alone were responsible and no one said, these guys are out of line? What does it take for the Muslim community to point their finger at Wahhabi's ?
Mick
Taiwanease Gentry
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 23:03
Has given kudos: 122 times
Has gotten kudos: 187 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Toad » Tue Apr 26, 2016 23:33

Not sure what you mean mick. Can you rephrase?
User avatar
Toad
Taiwanease Aristocracy
 
Posts: 2977
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:50
Has given kudos: 1012 times
Has gotten kudos: 711 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Kal El » Tue Apr 26, 2016 23:41

Hannibal wrote:
Kal El wrote:
It is what it is. :idunno:


A cursory Google search performed to tell one what one wants to hear? :idunno:

I have read and own a copy of the Quran/Koran/Q'uran. Feel free to sugar coat it or dismiss it. It is what it is.
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.
Sir Winston Churchill

Heathen filth, the lot of you.
Dr Kurt Langstrom

人不可貌相,海水不可斗量
User avatar
Kal El
Taiwanease Deity
 
Posts: 6931
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 23:17
Location: 台南, 台灣
Has given kudos: 1235 times
Has gotten kudos: 1164 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Hannibal » Wed Apr 27, 2016 00:06

Kal El wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Kal El wrote:
It is what it is. :idunno:


A cursory Google search performed to tell one what one wants to hear? :idunno:

I have read and own a copy of the Quran/Koran/Q'uran. Feel free to sugar coat it or dismiss it. It is what it is.

Are you Muslim?

I think belief in a religious text is vastly different than reading a fictitious book aboot god.
Na na na na hey hey
Hannibal
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48
Has given kudos: 58 times
Has gotten kudos: 454 times

Re: "Being Critical of Islam Is Not Racism"

Postby Hannibal » Wed Apr 27, 2016 00:11

Anyway ... while the line might be a blurry one, there definitely is a line beyond which one's assertion to be a Muslim, Christian, or whatever amounts to no more than words.


From our perspective, sure. Not samuch from theirs. If you were to have a discussion with these guys, you can't start from a position of "You're not really Muslin, yaknow." Yaknow?

I'd love to read a discourse on what happens when religious scholars speak with believers from each religion. That would be a sure shot hoot. :thumbsup:
Na na na na hey hey
Hannibal
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48
Has given kudos: 58 times
Has gotten kudos: 454 times

PreviousNext

Return to Religion & Spirituality