Bernie Sanders for President!

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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Kal El » Fri Mar 11, 2016 20:49

Big Vern wrote:Why is it that only those who have received an education slag off education? :lol:

I don't slag it off, but I had nothing, got nothing and did it all by myself. No mommy or daddy, no trust fund, nothing. Someone who wants to will find a way. I slag off the whingers and blame shifters.

Jack Ma wrote:The worst people to serve are the Poor people. Give them free, they think it’s a trap. Tell them it’s a small investment, they’ll say can’t earn much. Tell them to come in big, they’ll say no money. Tell them try new things, they’ll say no experience. Tell them it’s traditional business, they’ll say hard to do. Tell them it’s a new business model, they’ll say it’s MLM. Tell them to run a shop, they’ll say no freedom. Tell them run new business, they’ll say no expertise. They do have somethings in common: They love to ask google, listen to friends who are as hopeless as them, they think more than an university professor and do less than a blind man.

Just ask them, what can they do. They won’t be able to answer you. My conclusion: Instead of your heart beats faster, why not you just act faster a bit; instead of just thinking about it, why not do something about it. Poor people fail because on one common behaviour: Their Whole Life is About Waiting.

Waiting and blaming.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Toad » Fri Mar 11, 2016 20:57

Big Vern wrote:
Kal El wrote:
Big Vern wrote:In that case Einstein could have ended up in a garage.

Sorry, I don't follow. Could you explain?


He was told he would never amount to anything. So, his teachers spectacularly lacked any grasp on which students are academically inclined in that instance. It would be a real shame to miss out on any more such individuals in the future.


I'm not saying teachers are infallible. However it's usually fairly obvious which kids aren't going to pass any exams. They're the ones running around the classroom screaming like maniacs.

Obviously there are always the outliers: as you and Kal El described (in slightly different ways) Einstein was a poor student at school and a late bloomer. He was constrained and railroaded through a system that just didn't suit him. For a good few years he did make nothing of himself: he sat in a patent office staring at the ceiling. He got lucky in that he had resources available to him later in life - and that's exactly what I was advocating earlier.

The fact is most teenagers don't give a shit about learning. They're all full of hormones and stuff. The last thing they want to do is sit in a classroom learning about Byron. The ones with bad parents, bad diets, and genetic disadvantages are not only going to waste 12 years of their life achieving precisely nothing, they're going to waste a lot of other people's time and money as well by disrupting lessons. That's not OK. In fact what happens now is that not only are these kids written off by the system (not explicitly, but with bullshit and wilful blindness) they are allowed to write off a dozen other kids too who might otherwise have been slightly more successful, in the misguided belief that this is somehow their 'right'.

Compounding this mistake is that they are never encouraged - or even allowed - to repair the damage. Nobody ever gets a second chance. Your teenage years - when, pretty much by definition, you're likely to behave like an idiot - are not the best years for learning. Yet that's when we force everyone to learn, and if they bugger it up, well, too bad.

No amount of money is going to fix bad systems. That's why I object to facile solutions from armchair socialists like Sanders.

Why is it that only those who have received an education slag off education?

What Kal El said. And in this case, I'm not slagging off education. I'm suggesting that if we're going to force kids through a school system, it should actually involve some education, instead of just pretending that it does.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Big Vern » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:09

Kal El wrote:
Big Vern wrote:Why is it that only those who have received an education slag off education? :lol:

I don't slag it off, but I had nothing, got nothing and did it all by myself. No mommy or daddy, no trust fund, nothing. Someone who wants to will find a way. I slag off the whingers and blame shifters.


We're getting perilously close to Four Yorkshireman, here.



You still received a standard education, no? Or did you just get taught how to put on a condom and stack shelves (not necessarily at the same time)?
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Big Vern » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:13

Toad wrote:
Big Vern wrote:
Kal El wrote:
Big Vern wrote:In that case Einstein could have ended up in a garage.

Sorry, I don't follow. Could you explain?


He was told he would never amount to anything. So, his teachers spectacularly lacked any grasp on which students are academically inclined in that instance. It would be a real shame to miss out on any more such individuals in the future.


I'm not saying teachers are infallible. However it's usually fairly obvious which kids aren't going to pass any exams. They're the ones running around the classroom screaming like maniacs.

Obviously there are always the outliers: as you and Kal El described (in slightly different ways) Einstein was a poor student at school and a late bloomer. He was constrained and railroaded through a system that just didn't suit him. For a good few years he did make nothing of himself: he sat in a patent office staring at the ceiling. He got lucky in that he had resources available to him later in life - and that's exactly what I was advocating earlier.

The fact is most teenagers don't give a shit about learning. They're all full of hormones and stuff. The last thing they want to do is sit in a classroom learning about Byron. The ones with bad parents, bad diets, and genetic disadvantages are not only going to waste 12 years of their life achieving precisely nothing, they're going to waste a lot of other people's time and money as well by disrupting lessons. That's not OK. In fact what happens now is that not only are these kids written off by the system (not explicitly, but with bullshit and wilful blindness) they are allowed to write off a dozen other kids too who might otherwise have been slightly more successful, in the misguided belief that this is somehow their 'right'.

Compounding this mistake is that they are never encouraged - or even allowed - to repair the damage. Nobody ever gets a second chance. Your teenage years - when, pretty much by definition, you're likely to behave like an idiot - are not the best years for learning. Yet that's when we force everyone to learn, and if they bugger it up, well, too bad.

No amount of money is going to fix bad systems. That's why I object to facile solutions from armchair socialists like Sanders.

Why is it that only those who have received an education slag off education?

What Kal El said. And in this case, I'm not slagging off education. I'm suggesting that if we're going to force kids through a school system, it should actually involve some education, instead of just pretending that it does.


What you're suggesting is limiting access to education. Now, I agree with many of your points. However, if we are going to create as level a playing field as ever could be possible, and it won't be great, then where other place than education could we go? Surely if everyone has the semblance of an equal start in life then there can be no excuses?
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Kal El » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:22

Big Vern wrote:You still received a standard education, no? Or did you just get taught how to put on a condom and stack shelves (not necessarily at the same time)?

So? What's your point? My point is I (and many more in similar circumstances who wish to receive an education) didn't sit around blaming other groups of people for denying me opportunities.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Big Vern » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:25

Kal El wrote:
Big Vern wrote:You still received a standard education, no? Or did you just get taught how to put on a condom and stack shelves (not necessarily at the same time)?

So? What's your point? My point is I (and many more in similar circumstances who wish to receive an education) didn't sit around blaming other groups of people for denying me opportunities.


My point is it would be unfair to reduce the level of education you received for future generations.

Apologies, I'm not sure you're reading every post in this thread - so I'll try to make myself clearer in future.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Toad » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:26

What you're suggesting is limiting access to education. Now, I agree with many of your points. However, if we are going to create as level a playing field as ever could be possible, and it won't be great, then where other place than education could we go? Surely if everyone has the semblance of an equal start in life then there can be no excuses?


I think you completely miss my point. I'm talking about expanding access to education. Let's stop pretending that one size fits all, because it barely fits anyone. There is no "level playing field". You don't put the NZ All Blacks up against Scumbag College. The former will be bored and the latter will be massacred. However much money you pour into a class of mixed aptitudes, you've still got a suboptimal solution. There will be clever kids who are racing ahead, stupid kids who don't know what's going on, and deeply-disturbed kids who either need therapy or a spell behind bars. Put them all in a classroom together on the basis of "equal opportunities" and all you've got is bedlam (and a miserable teacher). I'm sure some of the teachers here recognise this scenario.

If a kid has no idea what to do with a pie chart but shows some aptitude for making pies, teach him culinary arts. He'll figure out some basic math along the way. If, conversely, a kid has no interest in metalwork but seems to be good at metallurgy, make sure he has access to good science teachers. The kid being taught to make pies has not been relegated to a "lower level" of education. He's just being given a proper chance to do what he's good at. Scientists are no more or less important than chefs.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Big Vern » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:29

Toad wrote:
What you're suggesting is limiting access to education. Now, I agree with many of your points. However, if we are going to create as level a playing field as ever could be possible, and it won't be great, then where other place than education could we go? Surely if everyone has the semblance of an equal start in life then there can be no excuses?


I think you completely miss my point. I'm talking about expanding access to education. Let's stop pretending that one size fits all because it barely fits anyone. There is no "level playing field". You don't put the NZ All Blacks up against Scumbag College. The former will be bored and the latter will be massacred. However much money you pour into a class of mixed aptitudes, you've still got a suboptimal solution. There will be clever kids who are bored, stupid kids who don't know what's going on, and deeply-disturbed kids who either need therapy or a spell behind bars. Put them all in a classroom together on the basis of "equal opportunities" and all you've got is bedlam. I'm sure some of the teachers here recognise this scenario.

If a kid has no idea what to do with a pie chart but shows some aptitude for making pies, teach him culinary arts. He'll figure out some basic math along the way. If, conversely, a kid has no interest in metalwork but seems to be good at metallurgy, make sure he has access to good science teachers. The kid being taught to make pies has not been relegated to a "lower level" of education. He's just being given a proper chance to do what he's good at. Scientists are no more or less important that chefs.


It's been tried before, you know. We had the Eleven Plus in the UK a long time ago.

Mixed ability classrooms seem to work very well in Finland.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Toad » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:30

It's been tried before, you know. We had the Eleven Plus in the UK a long time ago.

And it worked. Very well.

Mixed ability classrooms seem to work very well in Finland.

And everywhere else, they don't. Possibly Finland has fewer little bastards in their classrooms to begin with. Finland is also ethnically, culturally, and genetically homogeneous; that might have something to do with it.

What's that they say about trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Big Vern » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:34

Toad wrote:
It's been tried before, you know. We had the Eleven Plus in the UK a long time ago.

And it worked. Very well.

Mixed ability classrooms seem to work very well in Finland.

And everywhere else, they don't. Possibly Finland has fewer little bastards in their classrooms to begin with.

What's that they say about trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?


In which case argue your point as in you want things to go back to how you think they used to be. Choose a decade (50s?).

You're not arguing for anything new, though.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Toad » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:36

In which case argue your point as in you want things to go back to how you think they used to be. Choose a decade (50s?).

Nope, just arguing that people should stop pretending that everything's just fine and would be even finer if we threw more money into the education black hole. I usually take the view that if something is costing a shitload of money and seems like an awful uphill struggle, it's time to change tack. Specifically with respect to poverty, I was pointing out the education is singularly failing to give the poor what they need.

You're not arguing for anything new, though.

Nothing ever is. Go back far enough and you can usually find humans repeating new mistakes :smile:
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Big Vern » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:38

Toad wrote:
In which case argue your point as in you want things to go back to how you think they used to be. Choose a decade (50s?).

Nope, just arguing that people should stop pretending that everything's just fine and would be even finer if we threw more money into the education black hole.

You're not arguing for anything new, though.

Nothing ever is. Go back far enough and you can usually find humans repeating new mistakes :smile:


I find it highly unlikely that anyone is pretending that everything's just fine in education. Not even politicians.
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Big Vern » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:48

Toad wrote:
What you're suggesting is limiting access to education. Now, I agree with many of your points. However, if we are going to create as level a playing field as ever could be possible, and it won't be great, then where other place than education could we go? Surely if everyone has the semblance of an equal start in life then there can be no excuses?


I think you completely miss my point.


I don't feel like I completely missed your point. However, just to confirm, your point was that the role of school should be to train some kids to be shelf stackers?
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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Toad » Fri Mar 11, 2016 21:54

Big Vern wrote:I don't feel like I completely missed your point. However, just to confirm, your point was that the role of school should be to train some kids to be shelf stackers?

I think you just demonstrated that you did :smile:

TLDR version:

An education system that:

- gives a kid who has no interest in or aptitude for being a rocket scientist the "opportunity" to be a rocket scientist is a bad system, and results in fewer rocket scientists.
- denies a kid the opportunity to be a shelf-stacker if that is the only genuine opportunity that stands between him and permanent unemployment (or worse) is a bad system.
- fails to recognise that some kids have the most godawful parents, who actively teach their offspring to be poor and useless, is a bad system.
- forces 30 moderately intelligent and well-behaved kids to attempt to learn alongside 5 bone-idle, criminal or retarded kids is a bad system.

How you deal with that is up to you. I just proposed one possible solution which would be inexpensive and is known to work. No doubt there are plenty of others.

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Re: Bernie Sanders for President!

Postby Big Vern » Fri Mar 11, 2016 22:06

The funny thing is I don't really disagree with you. It's the extremes I have a problem with.
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