"Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Bubbha » Mon Feb 15, 2016 21:58

Fortigurn wrote:I don't even know anyone making the argument that sexism is more prevalent among atheists than the general population.

I think that Rebecca Watson et al., by specifically targeting alleged sexism among the atheist community rather than society at large, are by default implying that sexism is more prevalent among atheists than the general population.
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Bubbha » Mon Feb 15, 2016 21:59

Fortigurn wrote:
Bubbha wrote:In any case, he's a scathing critic of SJWs and what he calls "feminism" (but I call "feminist extremism"), but at the same time a liberal and a supporter of gender equality.


He certainly is.

I'm also a subscriber to his videos, which I enjoy a lot.
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Fortigurn » Mon Feb 15, 2016 22:03

Bubbha wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:I don't even know anyone making the argument that sexism is more prevalent among atheists than the general population.

I think that Rebecca Watson et al., by specifically targeting alleged sexism among the atheist community rather than society at large, are by default implying that sexism is more prevalent among atheists than the general population.


Ah, well I don't know enough about that to comment.

Bubbha wrote:I'm also a subscriber to his videos, which I enjoy a lot.


I've only seen a few of his videos, and they usually seem to be aggro about people I don't know, so he doesn't have a lot of interest for me. Maybe I just picked some videos which aren't representative of his content.
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby jimipresley » Mon Feb 15, 2016 23:41

What's an atheist "community"? I don't get that. I don't go and hang out with my atheist pals in a hall on a Saturday night, high-fiving, drinking punch and sniggering at religious people.

I do, however, hang with people from this forum on occasion: Some of us drink water, some of us drink vodka. Some are christian, some atheist and *shudder* some agnostic. Some are vegetarian, and they get gentle jibes; some are meaters, and they get a friendly raised eyebrow, or a smiling "tut-tut". Some of us are conservatives, and some are socialists.

And we all tolerate and like each other (at least in public). :smile:

We ask each other about our families, about our recent illnesses, (sympathetically) about how our jobs are working out; and we sometimes spill drinks on each other. Then we go home.

That's a community.

It's like saying that Springbok or NYY or Flat-Earth Society supporters , or people who vehemently dislike Nickelback comprise a "community".
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Fortigurn » Mon Feb 15, 2016 23:45

jimipresley wrote:What's an atheist "community"?


You'll have to ask the atheists who define themselves as part of the atheist community. I assume they think of it something like I think of "the Christian community".
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Bubbha » Tue Feb 16, 2016 00:07

It's like any community: the gamer community, the philatelist community, the Southern Baptist community, the vegan community, the community of expats in Taiwan, etc. A group of people who associate with one another and have common interests.

The atheist community is rather spread out, and largely associate online, via forums etc., and when meeting in real life may be members of clubs or attend conventions and lectures.
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby jimipresley » Tue Feb 16, 2016 00:08

Fortigurn wrote:
jimipresley wrote:What's an atheist "community"?


You'll have to ask the atheists who define themselves as part of the atheist community. I assume they think of it something like I think of "the Christian community".


Look, as you well now, there are two definitions of "community".

1) a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common.

2) the condition of sharing or having certain attitudes and interests in common.

Whilst they are not mutually exclusive, I adhere to the first, rather than the second, due to the semantic interpretation buried therein.

I prefer to use "community" to refer to people who care for and look out for each other.

When you use the word to convey subliminal meaning, it becomes problematic.

As an example:
When you hear "Christian community", your mind tells you to think of gentle folk sitting in a hall whilst their kids are in Sunday school, doing bible study, drinking coffee and working out ways to help the needy.
When you hear "Atheist community" you think of evil undead getting together to sacrifice virgins and drink their blood.

Those semantics have been conditioned into us by the hegemonic forces that rule.

I doubt that people in Russia or China would have the same reaction to the two terms, but North Americans and Western Europeans most certainly do.
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Fortigurn » Tue Feb 16, 2016 00:13

jimipresley wrote:When you use the word to convey subliminal meaning, it becomes problematic.


I am guessing that when atheists use the term "atheist community" they aren't trying to convey problematic subliminal meanings.

As an example:
When you hear "Christian community", your mind tells you to think of gentle folk sitting in a hall whilst their kids are in Sunday school, doing bible study, drinking coffee and working out ways to help the needy.
When you hear "Atheist community" you think of evil undead getting together to sacrifice virgins and drink their blood.


Well that's not what I hear, and I doubt it's what most atheists here.

I doubt that people in Russia or China would have the same reaction to the two terms, but North Americans and Western Europeans most certainly do.


That's just plain weird to me.
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Bubbha » Tue Feb 16, 2016 00:17

jimipresley wrote:When you hear "Atheist community" you think of evil undead getting together to sacrifice virgins and drink their blood.

In reality, it's more like people chatting online about the latest threats to church-state separation and the latest atrocities committed by religious extremists.

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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby jimipresley » Tue Feb 16, 2016 00:21

Fortigurn wrote:I am guessing that when atheists use the term "atheist community" they aren't trying to convey problematic subliminal meanings.

I don't know any atheists who use that term. It imples insularity and exclusivity which are both anathema to humanity.

But I'm sure you'll provide me with a hundred links to that tiny fraction that organizes and has Sunday meetings where they drink coffee and all hug each other for being so clever. :smile:
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Bubbha » Tue Feb 16, 2016 00:24

It just means people together. Sheesh!

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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby zender » Tue Feb 16, 2016 00:46

. . . the biggest demographic shift in "the nones" by Barna Group's poll was related to gender.

“In 1993 only 16 percent of atheists and agnostics were women,” the report explains. “By 2013 that figure had nearly tripled to 43 percent.”
-------------------------------------------
There are some vocal women in the atheist movement, such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Rebecca Watson, Jaclyn Glenn, Tracy Harris (my favorite), Jen Peeples, Julia Sweeney (funny), Madalyn Murray O'Hair (years ago) . . . I think you'll see more and more. Women still sometimes get unfair treatment when they speak out. Almost any woman on Youtube who is opinionated will get some nasty sexist trolls hounding them.

The elevator gate situation with Rebecca Watson attending a convention, drinking with a bunch of people in a bar, and then one of the guys getting into the elevator with her afterwards and asking if she'd like to talk about it some more was a bigger deal than I thought it should have been. She said, "No", and he went to his room alone.

That seemed to be the point when some wanted the atheist movement to be a more general human rights movement, and some tried to form Atheist Plus (Atheist plus equal rights for women, gays, etc.)

Are there any polls that show if atheists attitudes are any different than others about women? I would guess atheists are more pro equal rights for women than religious people.
--------------------------------------------------
Edit to add-
In most families that I know, the women tend to be the ones holding up the family traditions, be they organizing family reunions, sending out birthday cards, or going to church.

On any given Sunday, all across the world, churches are likely to have more women in the pews than men. Some estimates place the so-called “gender gap” in America at 61 percent women versus 39 percent men (www.uscongregations.org). That means that every Sunday there are millions more women attending church than men.

I think there has also been a double standard in many families regarding treatment of daughters and sons wrt maintaining traditional morals. If a son "lived in sin", he caught less flak than if a daughter moved in with a man before marriage. This has changed a lot in the last decades.
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Hannibal » Tue Feb 16, 2016 00:55

Wait, this is getting hard to follow; so, if Presley is being rational here, does that make him a sexist, feminist or an atheist, or does being in this discussion picking at word meaning mark him as an ostensibly anti-rationalist secular determinist? :ponder:
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby jimipresley » Tue Feb 16, 2016 01:06

Hannibal wrote:Wait, this is getting hard to follow; so, if Presley is being rational here...

Don't be silly. I'm rarely rational, and occasionally TOTALLY off-topic. :smile:
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Re: "Brazen sexism is pushing women out of America’s atheism movement"

Postby Hannibal » Tue Feb 16, 2016 01:13

jimipresley wrote:
Hannibal wrote:Wait, this is getting hard to follow; so, if Presley is being rational here...

Don't be silly. I'm rarely rational, and occasionally TOTALLY off-topic. :smile:


Hence the "if...."

I love convos about isms and ists, well, I love to listen to them for 2 minutes as I get my coffee of the day tall at Starburks. "The Ivy league pseudo capitalist feminists have TOtally got the anti-feminist atheist Bernie Sanders supporters wrong, knowwhatImean, Jeanette? We're all on the same team, amiright?"

:facepalm:
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