'95 All Blacks were poisoned

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'95 All Blacks were poisoned

Postby Big Vern » Thu May 05, 2016 17:41

The worst kept secret in rugby union is confirmed:

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/arti ... d=11632939

Now, if any of my South African chums can explain why Mandela's bodyguard would lie about this...
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby Kal El » Fri May 06, 2016 10:03

A few points.

1. Jeff Wilson wrote about it in his book years ago. In summation Jeff said not everyone was sick but a few were.
2. Jeff Wilson and this bodyguard both maintain the same story that although a few in the squad were vomitting and were likely poisoned neither think the Springboks, SARU, SARFU or the Bok management had anything to do with it or any knowledge of it.
3. Regardlesss of whether or not they really were poisoned (and the bodyguards story makes sense that it was likely betting syndicates), the All Blacks of 1995 weren't as great as everyone thought. They had a few class players in key positions, they were certainly a good team, but they only had one game plan. Get the ball to Jonah. That plan worked on England, but it was never going to work on the Springboks and they should have known better. For interest sake, Jonah Lomu (one of my personal all time favourite rugby players) never scored against the Springboks. Not once.
4. I have that game on my computer and I have watched it several times over the years. The All Blacks lost that game because of one dimensional play, basically the same game plan they had played all tournament. Many forget that the Boks scored a try that was disallowed. Both of these factors were a result of it being the amateur era. There was nothing wrong with that try and the game shouldn't even have gone into overtime. The Boks should have won 16-9 at full time.
5. At the time of that 1995 final the Boks had beaten the All Blacks 5 games or more than the All Blacks had beaten the Boks, i.e. the Boks had a positive win record against the All Blacks.
6. Whereas the All Blacks had the biggest winger in the world in Jonah Lomu, the Boks had the biggest center in the world in Japie Mulder. The Bok back three were arguably better than the All Black back three, with the exception of Jeff Wilson.
7. In the first game of the tournament the Springboks smashed the reigning World Champions Australia 27-18, who were actually the favourites going into the tournament. People forget that and they forget that the Springboks were underrated and given no chance against the Wallabies. That Wallaby side was bursting at the seams with legends of the game.
8. The next time the All Blacks met the Springboks in a RWC was in the third place play off at RWC 1999. The Springboks won again. 22-18. Were they poisoned again?
9. At RWC 2003 only Aussie looked good and were arguably robbed in the final, but they're not still whining about it 13 years later. The Boks and the All Blacks had a horror show at RWC 2003. The Boks lost because of shitty management and coaching in 2003. The All Blacks, as always, had the easiest pool games and beat the Springboks 29-9 in the quarters. The Springboks aren't still whining about it, despite being hobbled by a retarded coaching staff, quotas and political meddling in team selections. Then in the semis the Wallabies smashed the All Blacks 22-10. Were the All Blacks poisoned again? :facepalm:
10. At RWC 2007 the Wallabies (10-12 vs England) and the All Blacks (18-20 vs France) were knocked out in the quarterfinals. Were the All Blacks poisoned again? That team was chock a block full of great players including Dan Carter and Richie McCaw. It was the core of the RWC 2011 and 2015 World Champion side. The Springboks were crowned World Champions and the Kiwis all whined that it didn't count because they didn't play the All Blacks. Jesus, they couldn't even beat France in the quarters FFS. If memory serves that French side was trounced by England in the semis (14-9), the same England that the Springboks thrashed 36-0 in pool play and AGAIN 15-6 in the final, so GTFOH. Incidentally, France was also beaten by Argentina in the bronze final 34-10. So yeah, GTFOH!
11. When one wants to talk about irregularities and "fairness" the All Black fans (not the team, mind, the team are sterling fellows and can take a loss) always seem to shy away from the truth. So let's go have a look at some of that then.

11a. The Springboks weren't allowed to play in the 1987 or 1991 RWCs due to sanctions, but GTFOH with the Apartheid mallarkey. The fact is Zimbabwe and Mugabe have done far worse in the last 20 years but are still permitted to compete in international tournaments and international organisations.
The rationale behind sanctions was race based selections as per Apartheid, but how is that any different than quotas and forcing race based selections now? The fact is the Boks beat the All Blacks in the 1981 (proper All Blacks) and the 1986 (Rebels, but with many, if not all, of the regular squad) test series' and were a definite threat. With the current racist system the Springboks are weakened in terms of management, coaching, quotas, politics and a host of other BS, so it doesn't matter if they compete. Their threat is lessened. Yet they still managed to win in 2007 despite all the shit that squad and the coach Jake White had to take from politicians and the ANC (go read Jake White and John Smit's books if you don't believe me). The fact is the Springboks in 1987 were one of the greatest Bok sides ever, at the prime of their playing lives with a POSITIVE win record against the All Blacks, and I fucking guarantee Naas Botha, Carel Du Plessis, Uli Schmidt and Danie Gerber's Springboks would have raped the All Blacks in 1987. But the Saffas aren't still whining about it 30 odd years later.

11b. At RWC 2011 Bryce Lawrence (a Kiwi) screwed Australia in pool play vs Ireland, and then he screwed South Africa vs Australia in the quarters.
He announced his retirement in 2012, motivated partly by reactions to his self-acknowledged poor performance in the 2011 Rugby World Cup quarter-final match between South Africa and Australia.

Again, NZ had a laughably easy pool and an easy road to the final, yet the IRB still had to screw over two teams via a Kiwi ref to get them there. Then we're not even talking about how Wales was screwed over in the semis.

Here's France being fucked over by Craig Joubert (Saffa ref) vs NZ in the 2011 final.


11c. The cheating just never stops, but as McCaw once said in an interview (I can't find it for some reason) if the ref doesn't penalise you you'll keep doing what you're doing. Fair enough, but who's in on it then? Why does the IRB allow the All Blacks to get away with shit that no other team on earth gets away with? It can't be money from the NZRFU, because even Kiwi scribes admit that NZ benefits the most from Saffa cash in the Super Rugby and Rugby Championship (previously Tri-Nations) tournaments. But if you don't believe me, here are a few clips.

Against Ireland in 2012.


Ritchie McCaw Endless Penalties.

The All Blacks get away with this in every game. These are professional fouls. After three warnings a yellow card should be issued, and then a red. It never happens against the All Blacks. Professional fouls, even if a penalty is conceded basically robs the opposition of a try scoring opportunity.

All Blacks at the breakdown

After their loss to the All Blacks in Wellington, Springbok lock Victor Matfield said that ""It seems as if they are untouchable. The refs allow them to get away with murder. ... I cannot say much about the ref (Alain Rolland), because I will get into trouble. But there were a few times on attack when we struggled to play because our ball was deliberately slowed down."


It just goes on and on and on. The players and coaches can't say anything against the refs or the IRB, but the All Blacks get away with shit that no one else does. Out of their three World Cup wins one had the best Springbok side of the amateur era banned, and two were spoiled by so many refereeing "blunders" that make it look almost like an IRB/NZRFU conspiracy to get the All Blacks into the final with the easiest games possible and then to screw over their finals opponents.
Of course, if you mention this you are branded a sore loser or a whinger, yet they're still bleating about 1995 21 years later, when an independent investigation into the poisoning showed the opposite and zero proof of foul play afoot.

The fact remains, they played a one dimensional game dependent on Jonah and got fucked up even after the Springboks were robbed of a match winning try. If anything, all three their RWC wins are doubtful when one really comes to think about it.

That said, I am an All Black fan as I love the NZ style of rugby (apart from some of the unsavoury stuff mentioned above). I own three All Black jerseys (one is 25 years old, one is ten years old and the RWC 2015 jersey), as well as a Crusaders, Highlanders and Chiefs jersey. I also avidly follow the ITM Cup. But please, get over RWC 1995. It's embarrassing to still be whining about being well beaten by a better side on the day. :twocents:
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These users gave kudos to the author Kal El for the post (total 2):
Big Vern (Fri May 06, 2016 11:20) • jimipresley (Fri May 06, 2016 11:15)
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby Big Vern » Fri May 06, 2016 11:10

That's an amazingly detailed, informative, and well researched response. :bravo:

I still don't see why Steyn would lie. Maybe he's been bought off by the kiwi conspiracy.
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby Kal El » Fri May 06, 2016 11:25

Big Vern wrote:That's an amazingly detailed, informative, and well researched response. :bravo:

I still don't see why Steyn would lie. Maybe he's been bought off by the kiwi conspiracy.

I'm not saying he's lying, BV. In my first two points I said even Jeff Wilson (who is known for his blunt honesty) said there were players who were vomitting. Steyn says if the were poisoned it was betting syndicates and had nothing to do with SA Rugby, the team, management, government or anything like that. Also, an independent investigation at the time showed no evidence of wrong doing.

So what do we have? Some players did seem to have eaten or drunk something that made them vomit or have runny guts, but not all or most (according to Jeff Wilson). If they had been deliberately poisoned by someone, a big if given the outcome of the independent investigation at the time (which, btw, was a private investigation firm arranged and paid for by the NZRFU), it was done by betting syndicates that had nothing to do with South African rugby, the management or the government (according to Steyn).

Some big ifs, a one dimensional game plan and 21 years of whining. :twocents:
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby Big Vern » Fri May 06, 2016 11:37

27 of the 35 in the NZ party.
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby Kal El » Fri May 06, 2016 12:08

Big Vern wrote:27 of the 35 in the NZ party.

Not according to Jeff Wilson, who has no reason to lie, was part of the matchday 15 and had been vomiting himself. :idunno:
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby John Ross » Fri May 06, 2016 15:09

Big Vern wrote:The worst kept secret in rugby union is confirmed:

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/arti ... d=11632939

Now, if any of my South African chums can explain why Mandela's bodyguard would lie about this...


It's not very conclusive, is it? Just the guy's opinion and no proof offered.

21 years of whining.

Not from me or other Kiwis on the forums here.
If you think the All Blacks are cheats, why not support another cleaner team. Take a moral stand against the forces of darkness. :smile:
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby Tempo Gain » Fri May 06, 2016 15:39

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11465661

Weird this article--normally, it should be trivial for a bookie to "lay off" unwanted bets by placing countering bets with other bookies. Anyone in trouble would have been engaged doing so and not blabbering to Paul Henderson about it and getting tickets.

Was there ever any evidence of unusual betting patterns? That would be something at least. Doesn't seem like there's much evidence of anything at present
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby Kal El » Fri May 06, 2016 15:52

John Ross wrote:
Big Vern wrote:The worst kept secret in rugby union is confirmed:

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/arti ... d=11632939

Now, if any of my South African chums can explain why Mandela's bodyguard would lie about this...


It's not very conclusive, is it? Just the guy's opinion and no proof offered.

21 years of whining.

Not from me or other Kiwis on the forums here.
If you think the All Blacks are cheats, why not support another cleaner team. Take a moral stand against the forces of darkness. :smile:

I don't think the All Blacks are cheats, I think the IRB and referees let them get away with murder for some reason. As McCaw himself said (paraphrasing), if you don't get penalised or carded and you keep getting the advantage, why stop doing what you're doing?
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby John Ross » Fri May 06, 2016 16:01

I don't think the All Blacks are cheats, I think the IRB and referees let them get away with murder for some reason. As McCaw himself said (paraphrasing), if you don't get penalised or carded and you keep getting the advantage, why stop doing what you're doing?


Using that logic, the students in your class that cheat on a test aren't actually cheating unless you catch them.
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Re: '95 All Blacks were poisoned

Postby Big Vern » Fri May 06, 2016 16:16

Not sure what came over me. I put an apostrophe in All Blacks.

I'm going to have a sherry and a lie down.
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Re: '95 All Black's were poisoned

Postby Kal El » Fri May 06, 2016 23:04

John Ross wrote:
I don't think the All Blacks are cheats, I think the IRB and referees let them get away with murder for some reason. As McCaw himself said (paraphrasing), if you don't get penalised or carded and you keep getting the advantage, why stop doing what you're doing?


Using that logic, the students in your class that cheat on a test aren't actually cheating unless you catch them.

I was being nice. You said it though. :idunno:

I still like their running rugby catch-pass style of rugby though. :idunno:

Edit: I think there is a hell of a lot that all other unions can learn from the NZRFU in the professional era. From building the game, the type of game, coaching, management and all the way to the top. They've done a great job. And therefore, when it comes to support, where my ticket money and money for jerseys supporting the game is concerned goes, I am happy to buy Aussie and NZ rugby jerseys. :thumbsup:
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