Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Toad » Tue Jun 16, 2015 22:45

That she sued Howard University for discrimination because she was white has been reported in the mainstream press (New York Times, L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post...).


The problem is that when it's deliberate policy to favour black applicants, that's the sort of shit you leave yourself wide open to. Even if it's completely frivolous (which it apparently was in this case) how the hell do you prove that you didn't discriminate on the basis of race, as opposed to (say) the applicant just being unqualified? The court would be completely justified in assuming that race was a factor. It just so happened that the judge exercised a bit of common sense there (or .. was it racism? who knows?).

Utter madness. :grandpa:
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Big Vern » Wed Jun 17, 2015 09:03

cranky laowai wrote:
Big Vern wrote:In 2002 she sued Howard University for discriminating against her because she is (was?) white. She felt they showed preferential treatment to people of color when offering scholarships or teaching posts.

If true I'm surprised this hasn't made the mainstream press yet.

That she sued Howard University for discrimination because she was white has been reported in the mainstream press (New York Times, L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post...).


Really? I hadn't noticed it anywhere :doh: .

Those damned journos are clearly faster at Intraweb searches than I am :smile: .
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Big Vern » Wed Jun 17, 2015 09:46

Toad wrote:
That she sued Howard University for discrimination because she was white has been reported in the mainstream press (New York Times, L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post...).


The problem is that when it's deliberate policy to favour black applicants, that's the sort of shit you leave yourself wide open to. Even if it's completely frivolous (which it apparently was in this case) how the hell do you prove that you didn't discriminate on the basis of race, as opposed to (say) the applicant just being unqualified? The court would be completely justified in assuming that race was a factor. It just so happened that the judge exercised a bit of common sense there (or .. was it racism? who knows?).

Utter madness. :grandpa:


My feeling about affirmative action is it will only work if it's based purely on family income. Poor families are given an advantage. Even then it will be open to abuse, and of course it will no longer be based solely on some arbitrary definition of race or ethnicity. However, the groups they want to target will be targeted.

The big advantage is that most people will view that kind of affirmative action as a positive thing to do, although it will still have its detractors as would any unfair system.
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby divea » Wed Jun 17, 2015 09:49

I think Jimi is a black guy. He is from seth africa and he speaks funny.

People pretend to be a lot of things.
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Toad » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:11

My feeling about affirmative action is it will only work if it's based purely on family income. Poor families are given an advantage. Even then it will be open to abuse, and of course it will no longer be based solely on some arbitrary definition of race or ethnicity. However, the groups they want to target will be targeted.

Absolutely. The worst thing about poor communities - and this is from bitter experience - is that anyone with born with half a brain will be pulled down to the general level of mediocrity. Failure is not just accepted, it's expected, and woe betide anyone who thinks otherwise. That's why those communities are uniformly poor and stay that way. The best way of dealing with it is to assist those who would escape to do so. There are plenty of intelligent people born there, and the unfairness is that they never get their chance to excel; instead, they comply with the norm, and eventually produce more kids who comply; and so it goes. I've seen the exact same dynamic in white and black communities, first world and third. Poverty is poverty the world over.

The big advantage is that most people will view that kind of affirmative action as a positive thing to do, although it will still have its detractors as would any unfair system.

Yup, there will always be those who accuse you of being a communist :smile: . What they overlook is that people who are smart enough to obtain a scholarship (or a government-funded equivalent) will inevitably end up in a good job paying high taxes, or at the very least, will not spend their lives on social security or in jail. Not only will they pay back what they are given, they will most likely have children who will do the same. It's a very profitable investment.

Favouring black people for (say) academic tenure simply because they are unrepresented is counterproductive. They are underrepresented because there are not enough successes down at the bottom: in kindergarten. Start there. There aren't any quick fixes for big social problems.

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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Big Vern » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:13

divea wrote:
People pretend to be a lot of things.


You've met too many expats. :wink:
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Mick » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:02

ChinaCat wrote:
Bubbha wrote:She's clearly not black, and has no reason to lie about it. She shouldn't be so dishonest about it.


So, if a man feels he's a woman, and takes steps to transform his body, is he too being dishonest?


I don't think too many people would have much of a problem if all she wanted to do was dress up in a certain way. But telling everyone that a black man was her father was a lie, one of many she made and is now she's been called out on it. How many would have had a problem if she said "I'm white but identify with Black culture"? The problem was she was claiming to be African American.

The media initially and especially on the left were flat footed asking themselves the questions about trans gender folk as you do above. But I would suggest it's a false equivalency. Rachel Dolezal picked up very quickly on this and appeared on MSNBC I think it was saying how she identified as a black person since she was five. But this is just another lie, it seems to me there are fundamental biological differences between a trans gender type and nothing biological as far as I can see that would make a five year identify as being black. I thought this was a good read on the subject.

Dolezal’s ‘Transracial’ Dilemma

If it is true that there are no structural differences in the brain associated with race, and there is no gene or hormone that informs our sense of self that we are black, white, or other; it then follows that this so-called trans-racialism is not an intrinsic biological predisposition (as being transgender seems to be), but rather something that is wholly psycho-social in nature. In other words: she was not born this way.
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby TainanCowboy » Wed Jun 17, 2015 19:22

One persons comments on Ms. Dolezals' dilemma:

from: Wigger, Pleeze!

"...Kathy Shaidle informed me of the odd case of one Rachel Dolezal, the NAACP Branch President of Spokane, WA who for years has successfully “passed” as a black woman but was recently outed as a natural-born blue-eyed devil.

She wasn’t pretending to be black in order to experience their suffering. She was pretending to be black so she could reap the benefits. This wasn’t Black Like Me. It was Black Like She.

In a video that went viral last week, a reporter corners Dolezal about her claims that her dad was black. Behind blue eyes, Dolezal affirms that yes, indeed, sure, yup, her dad was black, yes, yeah, mm-hmm, he was. But when the reporter presses the subject, she walks away.

For years Dolezal has claimed her dad was coal-black and that she’s given birth to black sons. But last week her white parents revealed that she’s almost entirely of European descent, with the only other tincture being perhaps a gentle sprinkling of “Native American.” Also last week, one of her alleged “sons” revealed that he was merely her black stepbrother and that she often urged him to lie to others that she was black. It seemed as if her parents and her black step-bro all wished for the nutty charade to end.

In addition to birthing Rachel, her parents also adopted four black children. Like their natural-born daughter, they apparently loved basking in the whole black experience, too. But despite their wide-eyed progressive earnestness—or perhaps as collateral damage from it—they say their daughter started acting increasingly hostile toward them around 2006 or 2007. As luck would have it, this was also when Rachel began her attempt to visually “transition” into blackness. She already felt she was there internally—she merely needed a new coat of paint to finish the renovation job.

Miz Rachel is either baking her naturally melanin-deficient skin orange at a tanning salon or applying bronze-colored makeup in an act of theatrical deception that is only different from full-blown minstrel-show blackface in terms of hue.

from http://takimag.com/article/wigger_pleez ... z3dJhn6rDt
...more at link.

*Personal sitrep:
I attended a 2/3rd black, 1/3rd white elementary, Jr. High and for the first 2 yrs of High School. I was solidly aware of being white - but honestly, any discrimination either did not exist or was not in my social circles. The small village I lived in was 100% white. Maybe there were some redneck assholes - I did not know them and never had the "experience: of racial hatred. And this was in the late 50's-early-mid 60s. A time of much civil unrest in the U.S.A.
For my last 2 yrs of High School, we moved from the country to a rather upper-class neighborhood. The high school was 100% white. It was there that I experienced my first real taste of racial discrimination. I saw it in the "upper-class" white kids. I am white.

It was there also, that I learned what a "Wigger" was and is.
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby John Ross » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:25

I attended a 2/3rd black, 1/3rd white elementary, Jr. High and for the first 2 yrs of High School.


Me with my overworked Drinks Coolies, I'm the last person to criticize, but I must say, an average of two servants for each of you seems a bit excessive. :smile:
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby sandman » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:31

John Ross wrote:
I attended a 2/3rd black, 1/3rd white elementary, Jr. High and for the first 2 yrs of High School.


Me with my overworked Drinks Coolies, I'm the last person to criticize, but I must say, an average of two servants for each of you seems a bit excessive. :smile:

Gosh! I hope you're wearing your asbestos undercrackers because you're going straight to hell for that one! :lol:
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby TainanCowboy » Thu Jun 18, 2015 13:15

John Ross wrote:
I attended a 2/3rd black, 1/3rd white elementary, Jr. High and for the first 2 yrs of High School.


Me with my overworked Drinks Coolies, I'm the last person to criticize, but I must say, an average of two servants for each of you seems a bit excessive. :smile:

Well, we did hold a raffle each year and the top 3 winners did get to summer with us at our lake house in Michigan.

They did have to sleep in the boat house.
And do 'special duty' as to cleaning fish and the boats.
But they seemed happy. :wink:
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Kal El » Fri Jun 19, 2015 01:08

maoman wrote:I'd applaud her if I thought she was trying to make a point. But she looks like a confused person. And her parents seem concerned. I hope she figures things out.

So Bruce Jenner can be a chick called Caitlin, but she can't identify as black?
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby divea » Fri Jun 19, 2015 20:15

Kal El wrote:
maoman wrote:I'd applaud her if I thought she was trying to make a point. But she looks like a confused person. And her parents seem concerned. I hope she figures things out.

So Bruce Jenner can be a chick called Caitlin, but she can't identify as black?

She can identify as black, but she can't lie about it. Big difference. You can walk about being Taiwanese and all that but you can't start saying you know nothing about SA. :grin:

She can do her tanning, her perms, her affectations etc. but she can't lie about her ancestry. Just like Caitlyn can talk about corsets as long as she wants but can't deny her manly Olympic history. :idunno:
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Big Vern » Fri Jun 19, 2015 20:59

Kal El wrote:
maoman wrote:I'd applaud her if I thought she was trying to make a point. But she looks like a confused person. And her parents seem concerned. I hope she figures things out.

So Bruce Jenner can be a chick called Caitlin, but she can't identify as black?


Surely in Rachel Dolezal's case a transvestite would be a more accurate analogy? She's dressing up as what she perceives to be a black woman, not undergoing the racial equivalent of gender realignment surgery if it existed.

To a degree I understand your point as Bruce Jenner will always have the wrong chromosomes, although whether that defines a male is subject to debate, but I don't really buy the argument that Dolezal is the equivalent of transgender. However, I also don't feel that a post-op transgender male can identify with the experience of women as she's not genuinely experienced it prior to the operation. Dolezal gives the impression that she knows what it's like to be a black woman and has made up stories to support this, but it's clearly not the case.
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Re: Rachel Dolezal - a black and white issue?

Postby Kal El » Fri Jun 19, 2015 21:30

divea wrote:
Kal El wrote:
maoman wrote:I'd applaud her if I thought she was trying to make a point. But she looks like a confused person. And her parents seem concerned. I hope she figures things out.

So Bruce Jenner can be a chick called Caitlin, but she can't identify as black?

She can identify as black, but she can't lie about it. Big difference. You can walk about being Taiwanese and all that but you can't start saying you know nothing about SA. :grin:

She can do her tanning, her perms, her affectations etc. but she can't lie about her ancestry. Just like Caitlyn can talk about corsets as long as she wants but can't deny her manly Olympic history. :idunno:

Fair enough, however, I do know next to nothing about South Africa. I haven't been there in 15 years and everything has changed, even the city and town names. It's a different place now. :idunno:
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