"Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

From Protestants to Pastafarians, from Mormons to Muslims, spirituality is as old as man, and so is discussing religion.

Moderator: Fortigurn

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby cfimages » Fri May 15, 2015 11:07

I've mentioned before that I was raised in an atheist / non-religious environment and other than the odd wedding or funeral, pretty much never set foot in a church while growing up. And for the first half of my life would have happily referred to myself as an atheist. I don't classify myself that way now though. Not because I've become religious but because, from the likes of Dawkins on down, atheist seems to now represent this kind of evangelical / militant / fundamentalist approach that denigrates those who do believe in God or are religious. Perhaps that is only an unspoken minority, but in the Facebook world we live in, it comes across as being a much larger trend or movement. :idunno:

To me, an essential part of atheism or non-religious life, is the concept of live and let live. I don't see a lot of that from the more vocal atheists in my circles. Perhaps that "militancy" is only a factor with vocal atheists. It's interesting that one of the most common complaints against Christians is them pushing their religion on others, yet of all the Christians I know and am friends with (including a couple of people who are pastors / ministers), none of them ever do that. They might occasionally post a Bible verse or religious quote that gives them comfort but that's the extent of it. Yet more than a few atheist friends will post about how religious people are stupid, or believing in a God is a sign of lower intelligence.

These users gave kudos to the author cfimages for the post (total 5):
Just Jennifer (Sun May 17, 2015 01:56) • Fortigurn (Sat May 16, 2015 02:03) • SlowRain (Fri May 15, 2015 11:56) • Kal El (Fri May 15, 2015 11:43) • ChinaCat (Fri May 15, 2015 11:26)
User avatar
cfimages
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3392
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 14:33
Location: Danshui
Has given kudos: 706 times
Has gotten kudos: 941 times

"Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby HeadhonchoII » Fri May 15, 2015 12:10

Religious people are self deluding at the minimum, and not very intelligent in general. let's call a spade a spade. read the bible or any religious book to get your fill of fairy tales and rubbish made up by people 1000s of years ago.
I figure this out while attending a religious school and having no internet or Hitchens videos. It just made no sense to me by the time I was 12. That was before I really learned about the history of how the bible or the Koran was written and more complex scientific ideas.

Once you have access to the Internet , some science books, compare religious dogma and some education facilities I don't see how anybody could really believe in this God stuff. It's patently made up and promoted by individuals for their own agenda and there's absolutely no evidence nor requirement for a supernatural being to exist. In fact it's the greatest self egotism to think that there is something out there you have a special connection just because you were a human (but not any old animal) and you can pray to to help you with stuff! Then the idea of worshipping something cos it's powerful , so 2000 BC!

Of course there are plenty of smart people who pretend to be into the whole God thing for votes and fitting in with society or giving them some sense of comfort with their difficulties etc.

I'm not anti religious until people start telling me stuff or my kids what to think or believe. But I hate religious influence in education in particular, it's a cancer warping minds. Get that shit out of schools, it doesn't have any place there, see what happens in the Middle East as the most extreme example. also swearing to the bible or pledging allegiance to God, ridiculous. People need to activate their own critical facilities instead of ingesting thoughts from others without appraisal. religion is still a pervasive influence in many societies and needs to be actively put in its box. Thankfully the religion in Taiwan is a very free style one where most of the imposing consists of firecrackers and noisy temple parades at all hours but they don't have religious stuff pervading the schools or constitution or media.

I don't think society needs to have active atheist societies to promote their agenda, that veers too close to a Godless religion to me. Instead religion should be ignored in general and legal restrictions should be put on teaching kids made-up ideas as truth. That's in developed countries. In Muskim countries religion has already Co-opted the state and society, you will be jailed and possibly killed for challenging it, that's why Muslims deserve a special kind of supervision due to their inability to separate their religion from others or the state.
But you got to ask yourself the question....what would astronaut Chris Hatfield do?
HeadhonchoII
Taiwanease Gentry
 
Posts: 1754
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 16:45
Has given kudos: 128 times
Has gotten kudos: 256 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby sandman » Fri May 15, 2015 13:47

To me, an essential part of atheism or non-religious life, is the concept of live and let live

Damn! And here I was thinking that phrase came from the bible! But I didn't go to Sunday school and the only time I was in a church (a PAPIST one! Or at least Scots Episcopelian -- or is that like Anglican? I can never remember all them daft wee cliques, but I remember from school that they sure liked to kill and maim the other religious dudes. Which one of them is the one who did all the beheadings and burned the cathedrals and churches and all?) was one of my wee sisters' weddings. There was some dude up in a wooden plinth with a black robe and he was ranting about something or other. There were two red squirrels mating right outside the window, though, so I was thankfully spared his nonsense. Then we stood around in a 14th century boneyard, wearing kilts and drinking champagne and whisky. Now THAT'S what I call religion!
sandman
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3991
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 13:44
Has given kudos: 317 times
Has gotten kudos: 845 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby Bubbha » Fri May 15, 2015 14:01

In the US, we have an entire political party dominated by fundamentalist Christianity and passing laws based on fundamentalist religious principles, many of these laws curtailing freedoms of reproduction and marriage, as well as introducing religious indoctrination and pseudoscience into public schools. And all this in a country that is supposed to have church-state separation.

These are encroachments of religion outside of the realm of those who practice it, and is something that atheists, and rationalists in general, have to fight.

If you are religious, fine. Go to church, pray, read your scriptures, believe what you want; just don't force it onto others.
Bubbha
Taiwanease Gentry
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 08:48
Has given kudos: 158 times
Has gotten kudos: 274 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby ChinaCat » Fri May 15, 2015 14:23

Bubbha wrote:In the US, we have an entire political party dominated by fundamentalist Christianity...


Nonsense. The fundies are a small (but vocal) minority of the GOP.

Bubbha wrote:... and passing laws based on fundamentalist religious principles...


You over-state whatever case you think you have.

Bubbha wrote: ... many of these laws curtailing freedoms of reproduction...


You're free to reproduce, or not. But, if you want Government out of your bedroom, why are you asking others to pay for your lack of responsibility?

Bubbha wrote: ... If you are religious, fine. Go to church, pray, read your scriptures, believe what you want; just don't force it onto others.


Agreed... just so long as you don't force others to pay for your sexual irresponsibility.

Deal?
You have been permanently banned from this board. Reason given for ban: CONTEMPT - Rude, dismissive, or disrespectful responses to official moderator communications. A ban has been issued on your username. - Forumosa.com
User avatar
ChinaCat
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 16:15
Location: Earth
Has given kudos: 936 times
Has gotten kudos: 686 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby Bubbha » Fri May 15, 2015 15:02

ChinaCat wrote:
Bubbha wrote:In the US, we have an entire political party dominated by fundamentalist Christianity...


Nonsense. The fundies are a small (but vocal) minority of the GOP.

You do realize that the Republican-led House just passed a 20-week abortion ban bill? How did such a fundamentalist-religious-based bill pass if the fundies were just a minority?

The fundies used to be a minority. Now they are the GOP mainstream and they drive the agenda of the party. (Side note: this is the same party that thinks Obama is planning to dispatch US troops to invade Texas!)

As for you paying for others' "sexual irresponsibility", what on earth are you talking about?? (Do you honestly think using contraception is more sexually irresponsible than not using it?)
Bubbha
Taiwanease Gentry
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 08:48
Has given kudos: 158 times
Has gotten kudos: 274 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby Dragonbones » Fri May 15, 2015 15:59

ChinaCat wrote:
Bubbha wrote:In the US, we have an entire political party dominated by fundamentalist Christianity...


Nonsense. The fundies are a small (but vocal) minority of the GOP.

Bubbha wrote:... and passing laws based on fundamentalist religious principles...


You over-state whatever case you think you have.


A Public Policy Polling (PPP) national survey conducted between February 20th and February 22nd of Republican voters, found that an astonishing 57 percent of Republicans want to dismantle the Constitution, and establish Christianity as the official national religion. Only 30 percent oppose making Christianity the national religion.
Source: http://www.politicususa.com/2015/02/25/ ... igion.html
“To cook for the pleasure of it, to devote a portion of our leisure to it, is to declare our independence from the corporations seeking to organize our every waking moment into yet another occasion for consumption." --Michael Pollan

These users gave kudos to the author Dragonbones for the post:
Bubbha (Fri May 15, 2015 16:15)
Dragonbones
Taiwanease Deity
 
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 19:59
Location: Donghu, Neihu, Taibei
Has given kudos: 542 times
Has gotten kudos: 1062 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby ChinaCat » Fri May 15, 2015 16:55

Bubbha wrote:You do realize that the Republican-led House just passed a 20-week abortion ban bill? How did such a fundamentalist-religious-based bill pass if the fundies were just a minority?


Obtuse much? Do you think that all opposition to abortion is based on religious morality? Many of us base our opposition on economic morality. I don't care what you do with your sex life... just don't ask me to pay for your irresponsibilities.

Bubbha wrote:As for you paying for others' "sexual irresponsibility", what on earth are you talking about?? (Do you honestly think using contraception is more sexually irresponsible than not using it?)


Duh... I never said any such thing. Go ahead and use contraception. But, pay for it yourself. Is that too much to ask? :eh:

Abortion is not contraception, anyway. Contraception (birth control) prevents pregnancy.

Dragonbones wrote:
A Public Policy Polling (PPP) national survey conducted between February 20th and February 22nd of Republican voters, found that an astonishing 57 percent of Republicans want to dismantle the Constitution, and establish Christianity as the official national religion. Only 30 percent oppose making Christianity the national religion.
Source: http://www.politicususa.com/2015/02/25/ ... igion.html


Really? :lol: 57 percent of Republicans want to dismantle the Constitution? :lol:



:facepalm:
You have been permanently banned from this board. Reason given for ban: CONTEMPT - Rude, dismissive, or disrespectful responses to official moderator communications. A ban has been issued on your username. - Forumosa.com
User avatar
ChinaCat
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 16:15
Location: Earth
Has given kudos: 936 times
Has gotten kudos: 686 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby Bubbha » Fri May 15, 2015 18:30

ChinaCat wrote:
Bubbha wrote:You do realize that the Republican-led House just passed a 20-week abortion ban bill? How did such a fundamentalist-religious-based bill pass if the fundies were just a minority?


Obtuse much? Do you think that all opposition to abortion is based on religious morality? Many of us base our opposition on economic morality. I don't care what you do with your sex life... just don't ask me to pay for your irresponsibilities.

Economic morality? The bill is about curtailing abortion rights, not about who has to pay for it. "Economic morality" may make sense as an argument against paying for other people's abortions, but not as an argument against abortion altogether. (Never mind the fact that paying for contraception is cheaper than paying for abortions, and paying for abortions is cheaper than the cost to society of unwanted pregnancies.)

As for economic morality, I'd love to stop paying for the military through my taxes, because I have a moral objection to warfare. Let's make a deal: you don't have to pay for others' contraception; I don't have to pay for war.

On top of this is the fact that some women need the Pill for health reasons, having nothing to do with contraception. Such cases SHOULD be covered by insurance. Plus there are poor women who can't afford contraception. Should their plight be dismissed? (Keep in mind that humans are humans and WILL have sex: if they don't have access to protection, their sex will be unprotected.)
Bubbha
Taiwanease Gentry
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 08:48
Has given kudos: 158 times
Has gotten kudos: 274 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby ChinaCat » Fri May 15, 2015 19:02

Bubbha wrote:Economic morality?


Yes.

Bubbha wrote:The bill is about curtailing abortion rights, not about who has to pay for it.


Its all the same fight, and the different sides fight proxy battles and get what they can take. I am sure that there is opposition based on religious grounds for many. But, for many others, its just about economics. And if I can get some help on the economic fight by aligning with the religious people, I will. The other side does the same thing.

Bubbha wrote:"Economic morality" may make sense as an argument against paying for other people's abortions, but not as an argument against abortion altogether.


See my remarks above.

Bubbha wrote:(Never mind the fact that paying for contraception is cheaper than paying for abortions, and paying for abortions is cheaper than the cost to society of unwanted pregnancies.)


That's a bullshit argument. In fact, the best solution for society would be to hold people responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

Bubbha wrote:As for economic morality, I'd love to stop paying for the military through my taxes, because I have a moral objection to warfare. Let's make a deal: you don't have to pay for others' contraception; I don't have to pay for war.


We disagree on the purpose of government. I don't want my government in the bedroom and nosing about my personal business. I'll take care of myself, thank you. I do, however, want government to take care of national defense.

Bubbha wrote:On top of this is the fact that some women need the Pill for health reasons, having nothing to do with contraception. Such cases SHOULD be covered by insurance.


I've no objection to that. But, let's not pretend that Family Planning is mostly about that.

Bubbha wrote:Plus there are poor women who can't afford contraception. Should their plight be dismissed? (Keep in mind that humans are humans and WILL have sex: if they don't have access to protection, their sex will be unprotected.)


You have moved this debate and your earlier statements from abortion to contraception. Honestly, I don't care if people are too poor to afford contraceptives (which seems absurd, considering they have cell phones and televisions and all sorts of other things. Can't afford contraceptives? Not my problem. Get pregnant? Not my problem. There's a reason I have only one child. I'd love to have a few more... but, I can't afford more kids. Would you like to contribute to a fund to pay for my kid's expenses?
You have been permanently banned from this board. Reason given for ban: CONTEMPT - Rude, dismissive, or disrespectful responses to official moderator communications. A ban has been issued on your username. - Forumosa.com
User avatar
ChinaCat
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 16:15
Location: Earth
Has given kudos: 936 times
Has gotten kudos: 686 times

Re: "Reflections on the skeptic and atheist movements"

Postby cfimages » Fri May 15, 2015 19:18

sandman wrote:
To me, an essential part of atheism or non-religious life, is the concept of live and let live

Damn! And here I was thinking that phrase came from the bible!


It may have, I've never read it so couldn't tell you. :grin:

I think my great-grandfather may have been from one of them Scottish Papist churches, although my grandfather's generation walked away from it and the whole family has been heathens ever since.
User avatar
cfimages
Taiwanease Royalty
 
Posts: 3392
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 14:33
Location: Danshui
Has given kudos: 706 times
Has gotten kudos: 941 times

Previous

Return to Religion & Spirituality