Taiwan's adultery law

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Should Taiwan decriminalize adultery?

Yes
19
79%
No
4
17%
No opinion
1
4%
 
Total votes : 24

Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Just Jennifer » Tue Jul 07, 2015 14:36

Now we are OT, I know, apologies to the mod. I am already responsible for the kids and I don't see how any judge would give them to him. He has contributed a small fraction of their support over the last two years and thinks it's okay because I make enough money and he supported us "all those years." Yeah, all those years I spent with them as a stay at home, hands-on mom.

Are there support groups for foreigners jilted by their Taiwanese spouses? If not, lets start one.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Icon » Tue Jul 07, 2015 15:01

You are being logical, dear, but AFAIK, they only take into account: 1. he is a man 2. He is Taiwanese. You cannot see any judge doing it but remember the locals call them dinosaur judges for a reason.

I'd put you in touch with other foreign women who have been on the same boat but seems like adding gasoline to an already raging fire. And mostly, aside from commiserating, it is quite useless: laws are applied haphazardly.

Some people have gotten good settlements -kids are already more than enough, maybe some alimony is a miracle, but not reliable- with good lawyers, but they are a minority. At least you have a sort of upper hand as he has interests elsewhere.

Hang in there. Take the upper road. Let karma work its way. No one can do so much harm to his flesh and blood without receiving heavy punishment from life itself. As they say, sit by the river and watch your enemy's corpse drift by.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Just Jennifer » Tue Jul 07, 2015 18:24

Words of wisdom. Thank you. Smothering my sorrows/rage in ice cream now thanks to Ben & Jerry.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby maoman » Tue Jul 07, 2015 19:17

Just Jennifer wrote:My husband's sins are now impacting a relationship I have with a student's family, and impacting my son who just took a job as a waiter at a restaurant that he frequents with his supposed girlfriend.

What does that mean? :confused:
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby ChinaCat » Tue Jul 07, 2015 19:24

Just Jennifer wrote:My husband's sins are now impacting a relationship I have with a student's family, and impacting my son who just took a job as a waiter at a restaurant that he frequents with his supposed girlfriend.

maoman wrote:What does that mean? :confused:


Something/s that her husband did is now influencing her current relationship with a student's family and her husband's frequenting of a restaurant where her son works is affecting her son.

Pretty clear to me!
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby maoman » Tue Jul 07, 2015 20:25

I guess I meant "how".
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby divea » Tue Jul 07, 2015 21:16

maoman wrote:I guess I meant "how".


For starters, a boy having to serve his dad and his mistress? Or even see them? How inconsiderate of the man.

About the student' family and Jen, I imagine , imagine, something along the lines, them asking her about it because he is so flamboyant.

Maoman really? You have no idea how a man's indiscretions, hurts and shames his family?
Let me tell it to you then very plainly. Even though the shame is not the wife's ever, yet in all societies, sometimes by her kids themselves it is implied, 'BUt you failed to keep the marriage going'. And if no one states it to her implicitly or explicitly, the woman carries that burden herself. Some guys do too, but it's more of a woman thing. In addition a small city like Taiwan? Where every restaurant that hasn't closed shop in five years is 'famous'? Think about the scandals. When I was there, a certain someone someone had gotten into a brawl outside a bar and I remember you being upset about it because it was a formosan and I was like 'huh'? How does someone else's brawl affect you or your reputation, but I remember you were. I get it now, it's being shamed by association. That's how people get affected.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Housecat » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:27

I voted no, too. Because it's leverage when you need it. I can't imagine that many actually end up in jail, but I know it does help get a more equitable exit from the union.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby ChinaCat » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:14

For reference:

Criminal adultery law enjoys overwhelming support in Taiwan: Criminal Code Article 239 was upheld as constitutional in 2002 by Taiwan’s Justices of the Constitutional Court in Judicial Yuan Interpretation No. 554. In that case, the Court held that “the freedom of sexual behavior is inseparably related with the personality of individuals, and every person is free to decide whether or not and with whom to have sexual affairs. Such freedom is, however, legally protected only if it is not detrimental to the social order or public interest.” “Thus,” it concluded, “the freedom of sexual behavior is subject to the restriction put on it by marriage and the family system.” The Court found that criminalizing adultery was a compelling state interest because the prohibition upheld the institution of marriage and the family unit. It also held that the proscribed punishment was proportional to furthering this interest because the maximum sentence is only one year and it is an Antragsdelikt offense, meaning criminal prosecution can only commence with a complaint by a private individual, in this case the aggrieved spouse. The Court reiterated the constitutionality of criminal adultery just a year later in Judicial Yuan Interpretation No. 569. Support for criminal adultery is high among the Taiwanese population. In a 2013 public opinion poll conducted by the Ministry of Justice, 82.2% of respondents opposed decriminalizing adultery while only 16.8% supported abolishing the law. In a follow-up survey that asked whether they would support eliminating the crime if civil penalties were increased, 77.3% of those surveyed still answered in the negative.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Icon » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:45

This social order issue is a joke. It is a mask of hypocrisy that hands a no safety weapon of vengeance in a volatile situation. Divorce can easily become a vindictive tit for that under normal conditions and giving this much power to an already powerful party does not make the ground fair. It means escalation: it is going from a knife fight to a bazooka encounter.

As stated, this is geared towards women, to scare them into submission. Customarily, a woman won't ask for any of the stuff written on the paper of the laws here. I have seen 4 cases where the husband has arranged an encounter with a male so he has "photographic evidence" that he then can manipulate and weasel to humiliate his wife, threaten her with these adultery charges. I have rarely seen a woman make such "preparations" nor even document flagrant infidelities even though they are vox populi, in a faint attempt of playing fair and maybe catch a glimpse of the kids after they turn 18... if their minds are not poisoned too much to prevent so. A guy may be occasionally caught or mistreated, especially a foreign guy who might be clueless to the game, but mostly since the chauvinist and racist laws here will grant custody to the male Taiwanese, there is not much to worry about. He's got the upper hand. You cannot play it quietly. If you use this weapon, be aware it can explode in your face like a defective bazooka it is.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Toad » Mon Jul 13, 2015 13:49

Icon wrote:As stated, this is geared towards women, to scare them into submission. Customarily, a woman won't ask for any of the stuff written on the paper of the laws here.

I dunno about that. Judging by the number of advertisements apparently aimed at catching your simian husband in the act, I'd say it's a weapon that can be used equally by either party. Why would any wife want her monkey back unless there's some money in it?

OTOH I completely agree that it's a counterproductive application of the law which can only make a bad situation worse.

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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Icon » Mon Jul 13, 2015 14:07

The ads may be tricky, indeed, giving the illusion of "power" -you can get back at him! catch him redhanded!- but from what I have seen, aside from the occasional starlet caught by the paparazzis -read all in NEXT magazine with explicit photos kind of thing- women rarely actually use those. I have witnessed the setting up, though, and I guess that could be done by both genders. Divorce battles are the ugliest. Both parties pay for the breakup indeed.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby maoman » Mon Jul 13, 2015 14:14

Housecat wrote:I voted no, too. Because it's leverage when you need it.

Apart from extortion, what kind of specific leverage would it give you? Remember, in the west, adultery is grounds for divorce, and custody of children will be inclined towards the non-cheater, but it's not criminal. What do you think is gained by making it criminal?
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby maoman » Mon Jul 13, 2015 14:20

divea wrote:
maoman wrote:I guess I meant "how".

For starters, a boy having to serve his dad and his mistress? Or even see them? How inconsiderate of the man. About the student' family and Jen, I imagine , imagine, something along the lines, them asking her about it because he is so flamboyant. Maoman really? You have no idea how a man's indiscretions, hurts and shames his family?


I don't know that there is anything shameful going on. I don't know (and don't really want to know) the dynamics of their relationship. But it occurs to me, that if my wife and I are living separately, and she has a new significant other, then the marriage is basically over, no matter you have the document in hand or not. Referring to the husband's SO as a "mistress" seems to be a little misplaced, since even Jennifer refers to him as "husbandonpaper". I know married guys that have a mistress. They still keep up the appearance or at least the pretense of marriage. I don't think that's what's going on here. From the way Jen describes it, there is no marriage, except on paper.

Anyway, if my wife and I were separated, I would of course expect her to visit our grown child at the restaurant where he or she worked. If she brought her boyfriend along, I don't think there's anything shameful about that. I might not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong. I know lots of people with broken marriages, many of them are posters here. It's too bad, but no reason to live the rest of your life in a hole. Onwards and upwards!
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby ChinaCat » Mon Jul 13, 2015 14:43

maoman wrote:
Housecat wrote:I voted no, too. Because it's leverage when you need it.

Apart from extortion, what kind of specific leverage would it give you? Remember, in the west, adultery is grounds for divorce, and custody of children will be inclined towards the non-cheater, but it's not criminal. What do you think is gained by making it criminal?


The leverage is gained by the threat of criminal prosecution, and wives have used this in Taiwan to get more favorable settlements wrt divisions of property and child custody. If these cases are instead actually litigated, judges all too often give custody to the cheating fathers based on "best interest of the child" standard because the fathers often have more economic power/resources. The parent with money is often regarded by judges here as being best able to provide for the children. Thus, Taiwanese women not unreasonably rely on the threat of criminal prosecution for some measure of protection.

Traditional notions are difficult to shake, and it was not long ago that Taiwan's adultery sanctions applied only to wives and not to husbands.
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