Taiwan's adultery law

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Should Taiwan decriminalize adultery?

Yes
19
79%
No
4
17%
No opinion
1
4%
 
Total votes : 24

Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby maoman » Mon Jul 13, 2015 15:30

Prosecution for a criminal offence shouldn't be whimsical. The law should be applied dispassionately and without agenda.

What's needed is legislation that protects the most vulnerable. Family courts in most western countries have already figured this out. Taiwan can, and should, as well.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby divea » Mon Jul 13, 2015 16:09

maoman wrote:
divea wrote:
maoman wrote:I guess I meant "how".

For starters, a boy having to serve his dad and his mistress? Or even see them? How inconsiderate of the man. About the student' family and Jen, I imagine , imagine, something along the lines, them asking her about it because he is so flamboyant. Maoman really? You have no idea how a man's indiscretions, hurts and shames his family?


I don't know that there is anything shameful going on. I don't know (and don't really want to know) the dynamics of their relationship. But it occurs to me, that if my wife and I are living separately, and she has a new significant other, then the marriage is basically over, no matter you have the document in hand or not. Referring to the husband's SO as a "mistress" seems to be a little misplaced, since even Jennifer refers to him as "husbandonpaper". I know married guys that have a mistress. They still keep up the appearance or at least the pretense of marriage. I don't think that's what's going on here. From the way Jen describes it, there is no marriage, except on paper.

Anyway, if my wife and I were separated, I would of course expect her to visit our grown child at the restaurant where he or she worked. If she brought her boyfriend along, I don't think there's anything shameful about that. I might not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong. I know lots of people with broken marriages, many of them are posters here. It's too bad, but no reason to live the rest of your life in a hole. Onwards and upwards!

Really you want to talk semantics. I was mostly just imagining the least here. I was telling you what I gleaned from Jen's post. If he's married on paper, she is a mistress. I've heard plenty of stories where the other woman has squealed 'he's the lurrve of my life, my life mate'. Shut -up woman. He's still married to the woman with whom he begat kids.

Next, you're assuming your wife will come in this restaurant to meet her child, what if she's just there to be with her guy and doesn't care if her child sees her or not. What if she doesn't acknowledge your child?

I guess you're all cool and forward thinking and fine with your wife's new (hypothetical) boy friend entering your child's life. Most people are a little more conservative about introducing their children to what could just be a passing fancy. :idunno:

FWIW, I hate and I mean I hate divorced parents introducing their love interests in their child's life. Do it only if it's a sure thing in your head, not a 'let's wait and see'. Divorce (separation) is selfish enough.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby maoman » Mon Jul 13, 2015 17:07

I don't think one gets a say in who one's former spouse introduces to his or her own children. Stop "mostly imagining" the circumstances and take Jennifer's word when she says the relationship exists only on paper. Her ex is getting on with his life. She doesn't like it, but that doesn't take away from the reality of it.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Icon » Mon Jul 13, 2015 17:15

If he is getting on with his life, rubbing the other woman in his son's face is not that kosher. If she is the reason the parents got divorced, then the son will not foster the most positive feelings towards the woman. You are thinking he is just trying to introduce her to the son, in my experience, I have seen many vindictive parents who want to establish their dominance over their children, show them who is boss and when the children question their choices as being hypocritical, feeding them downright lies or being hurtful in order to get back at the other parent, then the insecure parent do things like this, parading the other woman, in a way like saying "so what? I am the parent, I don't care what you say/think".

A reasonable parent would choose another venue, a private place, not a public venue, where the kid is working. That gives me the idea that the father is showing off, with the intention of the son running to the mother with the message "look who I saw at work today". Too coincidental. So many restaurants in Taipei, why this one?

I have seen divorce battles like the War of the Roses where the kids are the house. The kinds of dirty tricks and manipulations are endless and one can't imagine a person would do that to their flesh and blood. But the truth is that when they see their kids, they see the other parent. And they want blood.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Kal El » Mon Jul 13, 2015 21:42

maoman wrote:What's needed is legislation that protects the most vulnerable. Family courts in most western countries have already figured this out.

I doubt that, mate. Considering the woman, regardless of circumstances almost always gets custody, child support and alimony leaving the man economically screwed in many cases, unable to carry on with his life for a long time, if ever.

Edit: Not including ownership of the house, it's contents and at least one car.
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Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Just Jennifer » Mon Jul 13, 2015 21:48

What the hell kind of parent/spouse leaves one day for work and then doesn't come back?

And what's with the bloody double standard??!!

A mother does this and it's abandonment and she is a bad mother.

A father does this and he's getting on with his life??

Maoman, at lunch a couple of months ago you casually suggested I start dating again. I said I'd like to but I am still legally married and I would like to respect that. Me referring to him as husbandonpaper is a dig at him. Is it really okay that people date before they divorce???? Here we are debating changes to the existing law. He's probably broken the law and that's okay because some of you don't like the law anyway? Are marriages really that disposable?

I am not saying that divorce is never okay but I do believe that divorce for anything less than infidelity/abuse/abandonment IS selfish.

Who leaves to pursue a dream/build a business? A ten minute walk from HOME?

Takes on his former secretary as a business partner and tells his wife (not separated at the time) to call before she comes?

I suspect that some of our mutual friends knew about this for years and were too embarrassed to tell me, or figured I knew and accepted it. Partly my fault for not catching on sooner but still hurts.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Kal El » Mon Jul 13, 2015 22:02

For what it's worth, I agree with you, I support the law, and I voted as such in the poll. :twocents:
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby divea » Mon Jul 13, 2015 23:50

maoman wrote:I don't think one gets a say in who one's former spouse introduces to his or her own children. Stop "mostly imagining" the circumstances and take Jennifer's word when she says the relationship exists only on paper. Her ex is getting on with his life. She doesn't like it, but that doesn't take away from the reality of it.

I imagine right. It's called common sense.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Housecat » Tue Jul 14, 2015 01:20

maoman wrote:
Housecat wrote:I voted no, too. Because it's leverage when you need it.

Apart from extortion, what kind of specific leverage would it give you? Remember, in the west, adultery is grounds for divorce, and custody of children will be inclined towards the non-cheater, but it's not criminal. What do you think is gained by making it criminal?


It's not extortion to use the threat of jail time to negotiate when everything about the law works against you, as I feel is the case if your female--particularly a foreign female.

Before we were married my ex and I had a conversation about this law, just as an oddity--we weren't thinking about marrying yet, or I wasn't anyway. He told me that, though it's the law that you can go to jail for adultery, almost no one ever does, and then it's almost always the wife.

If the wife catches out her husband (must be photos), she can use the threat of the law to set a price for her husband to "buy" his way out of the union. They'll settle on an amount, or stipulations like custody, and he'll agree to those terms to avoid jail.

If the husband catches out his wife, he can send her to jail if she complains about custody of the children or asks for money for support. Sometimes just for the convenience of being able to no be openly with the other woman without the ex complaining (say, about flaunting your relationship in front of you child by taking her to the restaurant where he works--for example). A pretty cold and cowardly move, but one that was popular before, apparently.

The threat of jail is a tool used by either party to help avoid legal battles and make the marriage "easier" to end. That was the thinking he expressed to me.

When it came down to it, I could have proven his infidelity. If I'd chosen to, I could have Stayed in/returned to Taiwan, proven his infidelity--which would have been easy and a double jeopardy for him because he paid for it with a credit card--and I could have "extorted" child support as well as custody from him. As it is, he gave me custody and never paid a dime of support.

In fact, by Taiwanese law, you can't divorce a spouse who's "abandoned" the marriage until he/she's been gone for 10 years, but my ex managed to divorce me while I was away far less time than that. And even though I'd agreed to a divorce as long as he left me with custody--I didn't even know that the divorce had happened for almost a year afterward. I eventually got a letter from the Taiwanese family court informing me of my divorce--and implying that I'd be responsible for legal fees for his attorney--but it didn't come for months. No one bothered to inform me. This because he was afraid I'd use the adultery laws against him.

Not extortion. Leverage.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby Just Jennifer » Tue Jul 14, 2015 02:21

Housecat, thanks for taking the time to share this. I think I remember reading parts of your story on the other site.

I am surprised that your ex was able to file for divorce while you were out of the country. Don't Taiwan divorces require agreement by both parties to split?
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby ChinaCat » Tue Jul 14, 2015 07:54

Just Jennifer wrote:I am surprised that your ex was able to file for divorce while you were out of the country. Don't Taiwan divorces require agreement by both parties to split?


Not commenting specifically on Housecat's case, but, no. A spouse can obtain a divorce by claiming that the other spouse has abandoned the marital home and has refused to return after repeated requests to do so. Abandonment is one of the statutory grounds for divorce in Taiwan's law.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby maoman » Wed Jul 15, 2015 07:55

Just Jennifer wrote:What the hell kind of parent/spouse leaves one day for work and then doesn't come back? And what's with the bloody double standard? A mother does this and it's abandonment and she is a bad mother. A father does this and he's getting on with his life?

I have made no comment on either you nor him as a parent. It's not what this thread is about.



Just Jennifer wrote:Maoman, at lunch a couple of months ago you casually suggested I start dating again. I said I'd like to but I am still legally married and I would like to respect that. Me referring to him as husbandonpaper is a dig at him.

Legally married is the emptiest version of that status. If you are married only legally, and not in any other sense of the term, all you're left with is the piece of paper. From your comments in this thread alone, everyone gets the sense that this marriage is indeed over. Why respect the legal aspect of the marriage? If anyone told me that because of a bureaucratic slipup, my wife and I were never legally registered as husband and wife, what would it change for us? Nothing. We're still husband and wife in the meaningful sense of the term.

Just Jennifer wrote:Are marriages really that disposable? I am not saying that divorce is never okay but I do believe that divorce for anything less than infidelity/abuse/abandonment IS selfish.

Marriages ARE that disposable. In countries where it is difficult to get a divorce, the situation for bad marriages isn't improved, it's worse. It sounds like you are at the receiving end of infidelity and abandonment, so a divorce would be a step forward and a release for both of you. From what you say, it sounds like you're better off without him, and maybe he can be a better husband to someone else. If your only reason for wanting to stay married is to punish him, what does that say about the state of your marriage? It's not something worth keeping. You'll be a better, happier person for letting it go.

Housecat wrote:It's not extortion to use the threat of jail time to negotiate when everything about the law works against you.

Of course it is. It might be helpful in achieving your ends, but that doesn't mean it's not coercive behaviour. You're just rationalizing it. Let's say the penalty was flogging, not only for the husband, but for his law-breaking girlfriend as well. Would you still feel morally absolved of using this law to get what you want? Of course not. But because the penalty isn't so severe, you somehow think you're off the hook, ethically speaking. You're not. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Prosecution for a criminal offence shouldn't be whimsical. The law should be applied dispassionately and without agenda.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby divea » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:14

maoman wrote:
Just Jennifer wrote:Are marriages really that disposable? I am not saying that divorce is never okay but I do believe that divorce for anything less than infidelity/abuse/abandonment IS selfish.

Marriages ARE that disposable. In countries where it is difficult to get a divorce, the situation for bad marriages isn't improved, it's worse. It sounds like you are at the receiving end of infidelity and abandonment, so a divorce would be a step forward and a release for both of you. From what you say, it sounds like you're better off without him, and maybe he can be a better husband to someone else. If your only reason for wanting to stay married is to punish him, what does that say about the state of your marriage? It's not something worth keeping. You'll be a better, happier person for letting it go.



Good God Anthony! Good God. :facepalm: What on earth are you talking about? Do you need to be reminded about Taiwan custody laws? No way Jen can have custody if she files for divorce. Also I'm just a bit taken aback. You really want to tell Jen, that releasing him would be the best thing. Ofcourse she has let him go. She isn't going psycho in front of his house and staging a sit in or plastering his adulterous face everywhere. She's gone on with her life, but she will divorce him (IMO) on her own terms. There's so much to resolve, to feel, finances, properties, kids' education fees, the whole fucking shit.

Here are my :twocents: . You keep bringing up your marriage in all these examples repeatedly. If I take you as one, then let me tell you - when and if your wife cheats, you'll go crazy, like psycho super crazy, not like Jen who is mostly just penning thoughts after having gone through a period of mourning but you'd go MENTAL, if the missus walked out on you one morning leaving the girls in your care (I know she wouldn't do that but hypothetically). My point, either put yourself in Jen's shoes really, like really having to explain to yoyur kidddos at 7 PM that their mom has a new boy friend who has replaced daddy. Please - even writing this scenario makes me sick and I can't imagine how bad it must've been IRL - be a little less judgmental of Jen, and stop pretending that adultery is no big deal, people should just divorce and move on. You would hit rock bottom the day the missus would do a walk out - and EYE know you wouldn't recover. Jen did.

Men are allowed to abandon women and vice versa. Abandon Kids?? No, they should fucking pay. If, as you say she is holding onto the marriage to punish him. IF it is that, then I'd call her someone of sound judgment. Those kids need to be avenged. Dads are not supposed to fucking trample over children's hearts. They had a bloody home and a bloody family, you don't walk out on that. That man, if he had brutally physically hurt a child would have had to pay and would be punished, he did so emotionally, he pulled the security rug from under them, and you're an emotional retard if you don't get that.
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby maoman » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:58

divea wrote:Good God Anthony! Good God. :facepalm: What on earth are you talking about? Do you need to be reminded about Taiwan custody laws? No way Jen can have custody if she files for divorce.

Pretty sure that custody isn't an issue with Jennifer's situation. Anyway, this thread is about the adultery law. If there is a problem with custody laws, then let's talk about custody laws.

divea wrote:Here are my :twocents: . You keep bringing up your marriage in all these examples
Only as a hypothetical situation, not in any specifics. If it's easier, change this:
Spoiler:
If anyone told me that because of a bureaucratic slipup, my wife and I were never legally registered as husband and wife, what would it change for us? Nothing. We're still husband and wife in the meaningful sense of the term.

to this:
If anyone told me that because of a bureaucratic slipup, you and your husband/the president and his wife/Brad and Angelina were never legally registered as husband and wife, what would it change? Nothing. You/they would still be husband and wife in the meaningful sense of the term.


divea wrote:when and if your wife cheats, you'll go crazy, like psycho super crazy, not like Jen who is mostly just penning thoughts after having gone through a period of mourning but you'd go MENTAL, if the missus walked out on you one morning leaving the girls in your care (I know she wouldn't do that but hypothetically). You would hit rock bottom the day the missus would do a walk out - and EYE know you wouldn't recover.

你懂一個屁。 :crazy

divea wrote:Men are allowed to abandon women and vice versa. Abandon Kids?? No, they should fucking pay. If, as you say she is holding onto the marriage to punish him. IF it is that, then I'd call her someone of sound judgment. Those kids need to be avenged. Dads are not supposed to fucking trample over children's hearts. They had a bloody home and a bloody family, you don't walk out on that. That man, if he had brutally physically hurt a child would have had to pay and would be punished, he did so emotionally, he pulled the security rug from under them, and you're an emotional retard if you don't get that.

You're talking about two different things. I'm talking about the criminalization of adultery, not divorce. It's against human rights. Even the United Nations says so. You think they might have thought about this a little?
"Fucking pay" "Kids need to be avenged". Holy smokes. And you're calling ME the emotional retard?
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Re: Taiwan's adultery law

Postby divea » Wed Jul 15, 2015 13:32

maoman wrote:
divea wrote:Men are allowed to abandon women and vice versa. Abandon Kids?? No, they should fucking pay. If, as you say she is holding onto the marriage to punish him. IF it is that, then I'd call her someone of sound judgment. Those kids need to be avenged. Dads are not supposed to fucking trample over children's hearts. They had a bloody home and a bloody family, you don't walk out on that. That man, if he had brutally physically hurt a child would have had to pay and would be punished, he did so emotionally, he pulled the security rug from under them, and you're an emotional retard if you don't get that.

You're talking about two different things. I'm talking about the criminalization of adultery, not divorce. It's against human rights. Even the United Nations says so. You think they might have thought about this a little?
"Fucking pay" "Kids need to be avenged". Holy smokes. And you're calling ME the emotional retard?

Cherry picking are we??

I was responding to this - not adultery laws. And I'm calling you an emotional retard specifically for this. Go back look what I quoted.

Marriages ARE that disposable. In countries where it is difficult to get a divorce, the situation for bad marriages isn't improved, it's worse. It sounds like you are at the receiving end of infidelity and abandonment, so a divorce would be a step forward and a release for both of you. From what you say, it sounds like you're better off without him, and maybe he can be a better husband to someone else. If your only reason for wanting to stay married is to punish him, what does that say about the state of your marriage? It's not something worth keeping. You'll be a better, happier person for letting it go.


This is what I'm talking about that.

你懂一個屁。 :crazy


Okay. You'll have a beer and be just fine. Like you care a fuck, the mother of your children has walked out on you one day. Just fine. And like you said you'll be just fine if she moves on and gets her new boyfriend to come see your kid at her workplace. You'll be all 'Hey I'm cool man'.


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