Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Kal El » Wed Apr 25, 2018 23:21

cranky laowai wrote:
Icon wrote:
Big Vern wrote:It has to be Hartzell. Very well-deserved. :bravo:


Hope it is him. He deserves that but with a ceremony like the priests.

Upon further checking, it's gotta be him. I looked on the MOI website, which says the American is "Hé xiānsheng" (何先生). Hartzell's Mandarin name is Hé Ruìyuán (何瑞元).

Meanwhile, my application has cleared at least the Ministry of Culture. :eek:

You guys and your ceremonies. The rest of us shed blood and ultimately paid NT50, handed over a photo and got an ID card.
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.
Sir Winston Churchill

Heathen filth, the lot of you.
Dr Kurt Langstrom

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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Icon » Mon Apr 30, 2018 23:44

cranky laowai wrote:
Icon wrote:
Big Vern wrote:It has to be Hartzell. Very well-deserved. :bravo:


Hope it is him. He deserves that but with a ceremony like the priests.

Upon further checking, it's gotta be him. I looked on the MOI website, which says the American is "Hé xiānsheng" (何先生). Hartzell's Mandarin name is Hé Ruìyuán (何瑞元).

Meanwhile, my application has cleared at least the Ministry of Culture. :eek:


Hartzell is the only one I'd go and cheer for. I'd write a full article about him even if I had to knock my boss on the head to do it.
"Lo urgente no deja tiempo para lo importante". Mafalda
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Eat the delicious food. Walk in the sunshine. Jump in the ocean. Say the truth that you’re carrying in your heart like hidden treasure. Be silly. Be kind. Be weird. There’s no time for anything else
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby cranky laowai » Sun Jun 24, 2018 22:03

Some figures of possible interest on new Taiwanese (most with renunciation):

Vietnam remains the major source of foreign spouses in Taiwan, with 3,907 Vietnamese becoming naturalized citizens last year alone, according to the Ministry of the Interior (MOI).

The ministry said Vietnamese accounted for 72.8 percent of the total number of people in Taiwan who gained citizenship last year, with most of them being spouses of Taiwan nationals.

Of the 5,366 newly naturalized citizens last year, 3,907 were from Vietnam, 533 from Indonesia, 471 from the Philippines, 122 from Thailand, 56 from Malaysia, 40 from Myanmar, 12 from Cambodia, and six from Singapore, MOI data showed.

That leaves 219 in the category of other, I suppose. And people from China are a different "other."

The total number represented a 65 percent increase from 2016, but was a 59.4 percent decline from 2008, the ministry said.

Its data showed that 91.7 percent of the people who gained Taiwan citizenship last year were women, 86.9 percent were spouses of Taiwan nationals, and 95.9 percent were from Southeast Asian countries.

In 2015, the number of people who became naturalized citizens was 3,252, a record low in a declining annual trend since 2008 when the number was 13,230, the data showed.

The MOI attributed the decline to a regulation implemented in 2005 that requires an interview with immigration officials before a couple can file for admission of a foreign spouse.

The regulation was introduced to screen out fake marriages, among other reasons, according to the ministry.


source: Over 72% of new naturalized Taiwanese hail from Vietnam: MOI
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby cranky laowai » Tue Jun 26, 2018 22:54

Amazing. My application received its final approval today from the Ministry of the Interior. (Not that anyone in the government bothered to tell me about this. I just happened to see it in the news.) I'm going to be a citizen here, and without having to renounce my U.S. citizenship. :eek:

As happy as I am now, I write this not to boast in the least. Although I'm not exactly a newbie, I'm certainly not famous or rich or a high-tech expert or a professor at Tai-Da or handsome or followed by multitudes on Facebook or good at sports or ranked above Da Shan in Mandarin ability or.... So what I want to say is this: If I can get citizenship without renunciation, a lot of others here should be able to as well.

From my experience going through this process (and from that of my long-suffering taitai, who made phone call after phone call and wrote all sorts of nice-sounding documents about me), I can give a bit of advice.
  • The first step (gaining approval from a ministry or other high-level agency) is the most crucial. If you get past that, you can probably get past the MOI, though it will take some time. (My first try was rejected. I tried again with a different ministry, which worked.)
  • Make copies of all of your application material! After my application received initial approval, everything was filed away. But different offices needed to see the material after that, so I had to resubmit all of my recommendation letters and supporting information to them. Again: make copies!
  • This is still a new thing, so lots of officials aren't up to speed on the procedure yet. It may take some time for you to find the people you need to communicate with. Just stick with it ... and be polite!

Good luck!

These users gave kudos to the author cranky laowai for the post (total 5):
Just Jennifer (Sat Jun 30, 2018 02:43) • maoman (Fri Jun 29, 2018 14:00) • LostInTaipei (Wed Jun 27, 2018 18:50) • Icon (Wed Jun 27, 2018 16:29) • Kal El (Wed Jun 27, 2018 08:13)
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby cranky laowai » Tue Jun 26, 2018 22:58

The Ministry of the Interior approved 18 people in the latest batch, bringing the total to 50. So it looks like this is getting easier.

If you've been thinking about trying, I think you should go for it. Call in some guanxi and get one or more good letters of recommendation.

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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Northcoast Surfer » Tue Jun 26, 2018 23:03

cranky laowai wrote:The Ministry of the Interior approved 18 people in the latest batch, bringing the total to 50. So it looks like this is getting easier.

If you've been thinking about trying, I think you should go for it. Call in some guanxi and get one or more good letters of recommendation.


I'm very good at following step by step guides. Hint hint....nudge nudge.

Well done. I'm very pleased for you.
I understand your concerns.........request DENIED!

I'm a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless steaming pile of cow dung, figuratively speaking.

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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Kal El » Wed Jun 27, 2018 08:14

Northcoast Surfer wrote:
cranky laowai wrote:The Ministry of the Interior approved 18 people in the latest batch, bringing the total to 50. So it looks like this is getting easier.

If you've been thinking about trying, I think you should go for it. Call in some guanxi and get one or more good letters of recommendation.


I'm very good at following step by step guides. Hint hint....nudge nudge.

Well done. I'm very pleased for you.

Good to see you back! :thumbsup:
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.
Sir Winston Churchill

Heathen filth, the lot of you.
Dr Kurt Langstrom

人不可貌相,海水不可斗量
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby John Ross » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:46

Congratulations, Cranky. Good to see that your volunteer work at the leper colony paid off.
You'll soon have two passports, just like a man of international mystery and espionage. Yes, you'll be moving seamlessly between identities, cruising the streets like a James Bond, but ... er, without the excitement and glamor, the hot babes and cool cars.

So, how does it feel to be Taiwanese - are you starting to feel the stirrings of passion for Tongyong Pinyin?
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Dragonbones » Wed Jun 27, 2018 14:51

Congrats, cranky! :smile:
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Icon » Wed Jun 27, 2018 16:25

cranky laowai wrote:The Ministry of the Interior approved 18 people in the latest batch, bringing the total to 50. So it looks like this is getting easier.

If you've been thinking about trying, I think you should go for it. Call in some guanxi and get one or more good letters of recommendation.



I was about to write to you and ask. Congratulations!
"Lo urgente no deja tiempo para lo importante". Mafalda
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Eat the delicious food. Walk in the sunshine. Jump in the ocean. Say the truth that you’re carrying in your heart like hidden treasure. Be silly. Be kind. Be weird. There’s no time for anything else
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Icon » Wed Jun 27, 2018 16:28

Northcoast Surfer wrote:
cranky laowai wrote:The Ministry of the Interior approved 18 people in the latest batch, bringing the total to 50. So it looks like this is getting easier.

If you've been thinking about trying, I think you should go for it. Call in some guanxi and get one or more good letters of recommendation.


I'm very good at following step by step guides. Hint hint....nudge nudge.

Well done. I'm very pleased for you.


Hello again! :yay: :yay: :yay:
"Lo urgente no deja tiempo para lo importante". Mafalda
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Eat the delicious food. Walk in the sunshine. Jump in the ocean. Say the truth that you’re carrying in your heart like hidden treasure. Be silly. Be kind. Be weird. There’s no time for anything else
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby cranky laowai » Wed Jun 27, 2018 18:22

Northcoast Surfer wrote:
cranky laowai wrote:The Ministry of the Interior approved 18 people in the latest batch, bringing the total to 50. So it looks like this is getting easier.

If you've been thinking about trying, I think you should go for it. Call in some guanxi and get one or more good letters of recommendation.


I'm very good at following step by step guides. Hint hint....nudge nudge.


Here's a chabuduo version of the steps.

The basics are outlined on a website the government set up for this: Gāojí zhuānyè réncái shēnqǐng guīhuà guójí zhuānqū (高級專業人才申請歸化國籍專區). Although the site is in Mandarin, a few documents through it are also available in English.

First, you should think about how you might qualify, or at least how you might be able to sell yourself as qualifying, as a “high-level professional.” How have you been useful to Taiwan? What sort of recognition have you received (e.g., awards, newspaper articles, service on committees)? Maybe it’s not just one thing. Maybe it’s lots of things together.

Then think about who you know who might be able to give you a letter of recommendation. This person should be by at least some measure a bigshot, such as an internationally recognized expert in an “important” field (this may or may not be interpreted flexibly by those in charge of reviewing your case), the head of a ministry, or someone who has been the president of a university here. That sort of person. You may be able to get away with a recommendation from someone in a lower position; that will probably depend on the prevailing mood at the time toward such applications. The key to understanding said mood is probably the person in the following step.

Next, figure out which ministry/agency/office you might like to apply through and then contact the relevant person there for further guidance.

I initially was under the impression that people have to apply through the agency most closely related to their work. That is not necessarily the case. If your current job is related to, say, the Ministry of Silly Walks but you think your main selling point is actually running a large website in your spare time dedicated to informing foreigners about cool Taiwanese temples, you should probably forget all about the Ministry of Silly Walks and instead apply through the Ministry of Culture. Sometimes more than one office might seem possible. Talk with whoever gets assigned to such cases and ask for their recommendation. If you think your Mandarin or Taiwanese isn’t up to the task, get someone to help you. Remember, the civil servant on the other end of that phone line has a lot of power to help or hinder you. Keep in mind, too, that dealing with people like you is probably not their main job and they have other responsibilities. So be polite. Be understanding. Be patient.

There’s not much to the application form itself. It’s the supporting material that takes some time. For example, I had my Mandarin CV written by someone wise in the ways of Taiwan’s bureaucracy and then edited by a professional writer. Going that route was perhaps not essential; but it certainly didn’t hurt.

Before you submit your application, be sure to make copies of all of your material. You will probably need it again later. (The first time for the initial agency; the second time for the Ministry of the Interior. And you may need a few documents for your city/county government as well.)

Know that after you send everything in you will probably have to wait some time before you hear anything back. Generally, such applications are not dealt with individually as they come in but rather handled in batches every few months.

If your application receives a recommendation from the agency (I found out by registered mail), congratulations! You have made it past what is probably the largest hurdle. But there is more you will need to do.

The next step involves your local Household Registration Office (see the map on this page), which is where you will have to go to take the government’s language and civic knowledge examination for Taiwanese citizenship. You can take this in either oral or written form. People who have a Taiwanese spouse need receive a score of only 60 points to pass; all others need at least 70 points (out of 100).

Dealing with the Household Registration Office takes a bit of money, including a NT$1,200 money order from a post office before you take your exam.

Note that if you apply as a spouse, the government will probably need to go through the formality of sending someone to your apartment to help ensure that you’re in a real marriage and not a foreign prostitute. This will add to the time it takes to process your application. So even if you’re married to a Taiwanese, if you can score above 70 on the exam all the better, as it may allow them to skip that particular time-consuming bit of mafan.

After you pass the exam, the Household Registration Office -- in its own good time -- will send your material to the city/county government, where it will be passed around various desks. Expect for this to take weeks, not hours or days. (I was given the address of a website I could use to check the status of my case; but the info was so vague as to be largely useless.) In my case, nearly a month after I passed the exam I received a copy of a gongwen from the mayor about my case; the main document was sent to the Ministry of the Interior. I was under the impression that the Household Registration Office merely informed other agencies whether I passed the test; but the gongwen said that my actual score was reported. I don't know if the MOI cares what sort of score you get. (I got every question on the oral exam right.)

Then it’s a matter of waiting for the decision of the committee at the Ministry of the Interior. Note that they meet only every several months, so you may need to wait and wait.

Nobody informed me that I had passed. I just happened to read about it in the news.

I'm still not clear on whether I need to wait a year before receiving a Taiwan ID number.

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Just Jennifer (Sat Jun 30, 2018 02:51) • jimipresley (Wed Jun 27, 2018 18:35)
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Northcoast Surfer » Wed Jun 27, 2018 18:42

cranky laowai wrote:
Northcoast Surfer wrote:
cranky laowai wrote:The Ministry of the Interior approved 18 people in the latest batch, bringing the total to 50. So it looks like this is getting easier.

If you've been thinking about trying, I think you should go for it. Call in some guanxi and get one or more good letters of recommendation.


I'm very good at following step by step guides. Hint hint....nudge nudge.


Here's a chabuduo version of the steps.

The basics are outlined on a website the government set up for this: Gāojí zhuānyè réncái shēnqǐng guīhuà guójí zhuānqū (高級專業人才申請歸化國籍專區). Although the site is in Mandarin, a few documents through it are also available in English.

First, you should think about how you might qualify, or at least how you might be able to sell yourself as qualifying, as a “high-level professional.” How have you been useful to Taiwan? What sort of recognition have you received (e.g., awards, newspaper articles, service on committees)? Maybe it’s not just one thing. Maybe it’s lots of things together.

Then think about who you know who might be able to give you a letter of recommendation. This person should be by at least some measure a bigshot, such as an internationally recognized expert in an “important” field (this may or may not be interpreted flexibly by those in charge of reviewing your case), the head of a ministry, or someone who has been the president of a university here. That sort of person. You may be able to get away with a recommendation from someone in a lower position; that will probably depend on the prevailing mood at the time toward such applications. The key to understanding said mood is probably the person in the following step.

Next, figure out which ministry/agency/office you might like to apply through and then contact the relevant person there for further guidance.

I initially was under the impression that people have to apply through the agency most closely related to their work. That is not necessarily the case. If your current job is related to, say, the Ministry of Silly Walks but you think your main selling point is actually running a large website in your spare time dedicated to informing foreigners about cool Taiwanese temples, you should probably forget all about the Ministry of Silly Walks and instead apply through the Ministry of Culture. Sometimes more than one office might seem possible. Talk with whoever gets assigned to such cases and ask for their recommendation. If you think your Mandarin or Taiwanese isn’t up to the task, get someone to help you. Remember, the civil servant on the other end of that phone line has a lot of power to help or hinder you. Keep in mind, too, that dealing with people like you is probably not their main job and they have other responsibilities. So be polite. Be understanding. Be patient.

There’s not much to the application form itself. It’s the supporting material that takes some time. For example, I had my Mandarin CV written by someone wise in the ways of Taiwan’s bureaucracy and then edited by a professional writer. Going that route was perhaps not essential; but it certainly didn’t hurt.

Before you submit your application, be sure to make copies of all of your material. You will probably need it again later. (The first time for the initial agency; the second time for the Ministry of the Interior. And you may need a few documents for your city/county government as well.)

Know that after you send everything in you will probably have to wait some time before you hear anything back. Generally, such applications are not dealt with individually as they come in but rather handled in batches every few months.

If your application receives a recommendation from the agency (I found out by registered mail), congratulations! You have made it past what is probably the largest hurdle. But there is more you will need to do.

The next step involves your local Household Registration Office (see the map on this page), which is where you will have to go to take the government’s language and civic knowledge examination for Taiwanese citizenship. You can take this in either oral or written form. People who have a Taiwanese spouse need receive a score of only 60 points to pass; all others need at least 70 points (out of 100).

Dealing with the Household Registration Office takes a bit of money, including a NT$1,200 money order from a post office before you take your exam.

Note that if you apply as a spouse, the government will probably need to go through the formality of sending someone to your apartment to help ensure that you’re in a real marriage and not a foreign prostitute. This will add to the time it takes to process your application. So even if you’re married to a Taiwanese, if you can score above 70 on the exam all the better, as it may allow them to skip that particular time-consuming bit of mafan.

After you pass the exam, the Household Registration Office -- in its own good time -- will send your material to the city/county government, where it will be passed around various desks. Expect for this to take weeks, not hours or days. (I was given the address of a website I could use to check the status of my case; but the info was so vague as to be largely useless.) In my case, nearly a month after I passed the exam I received a copy of a gongwen from the mayor about my case; the main document was sent to the Ministry of the Interior. I was under the impression that the Household Registration Office merely informed other agencies whether I passed the test; but the gongwen said that my actual score was reported. I don't know if the MOI cares what sort of score you get. (I got every question on the oral exam right.)

Then it’s a matter of waiting for the decision of the committee at the Ministry of the Interior. Note that they meet only every several months, so you may need to wait and wait.

Nobody informed me that I had passed. I just happened to read about it in the news.

I'm still not clear on whether I need to wait a year before receiving a Taiwan ID number.



Thank you sir. :bow:

FYI - I've applied for citizenship three times now. I've been approved all three times. Why three times? Because after you apply and are approved, you've got up to two years to renounce your original citizenship without having to apply again. So, two years elapsed because I hadn't renounced and therefore had to apply again. In fact, the only thing that has been holding me back from getting Taiwanese citizenship was to simply renounce my US citizenship. Fuck that! Not happening. I was hoping that the government would rescind the renunciation requirement during one of my two year approval periods, but of course they didn't and won't ever. My latest two year application has now elapsed and I have to go through the entire process of applying for citizenship again. I've got it down to a science. It's simple.

What I don't have down to a science is how to apply for and get approval for citizenship WITHOUT renouncing my US citizenship. That's the problem for me. I'm a simple, retired dude. I'm nothing special and don't believe I possess any special talents. So,,,,how do I convince the assholes that I'm good enough to become a citizen without renouncing my US citizenship. I've applied three times and been approved three times. When I apply again, that will be four times and I'll surely be approved again. I ain't ever going to give up my US citizenship.


But, mail order brides from Vietnam, Thailand, etc. simply renounce their citizenships, bring the paperwork to the Taiwan government and get their Taiwanese citizenship and right afterward, they go back to their home countries and reclaim their original citizenships. Easy peasy. I know this from first hand experience. I live in the fucking boonies up here in the north coast and there are literally tons of loser Taiwanese men who MUST buy their wives from Vietnam and I know so many of these lovely ladies and they tell me EVERYTHING.


Ok......let me calm down.....my fucking blood pressure is making me dizzy. I'm pissed off to say the least over this bullshit renunciation requirement which only really effects a few countries like the US, Japan, Russia and tons of Vietnamese and Thais aren't affected in the same way. If I renounce my US citizenship, I'm no different than any other person who wants to move to the US and live and work. Hell, if I did renounce, it might be more advantageous to fly into Mexico and cross the border illegally and stay and work in the US. They do it and most end up getting to stay!


Sorry....RANT OVER!
I understand your concerns.........request DENIED!

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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Kal El » Wed Jun 27, 2018 22:24

Kal El wrote:
Northcoast Surfer wrote:
cranky laowai wrote:The Ministry of the Interior approved 18 people in the latest batch, bringing the total to 50. So it looks like this is getting easier.

If you've been thinking about trying, I think you should go for it. Call in some guanxi and get one or more good letters of recommendation.


I'm very good at following step by step guides. Hint hint....nudge nudge.

Well done. I'm very pleased for you.

Good to see you back! :thumbsup:

I tried to send you a message but I got this, "Some users couldn’t be added as they have disabled private message receipt." :idunno:
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Heathen filth, the lot of you.
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Re: Legislator proposes eliminating renunciation requirement

Postby Kal El » Wed Jun 27, 2018 22:31

cranky laowai wrote:I'm still not clear on whether I need to wait a year before receiving a Taiwan ID number.

I am therefore very curious as to why you think you have had any success. That is, once you have your TARC, it is one year exact until you have your ID. :idunno:

Edit: Unless I am misunderstanding something from your posts. Have they issued you with a TARC yet?
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.
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Heathen filth, the lot of you.
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